BiaggisToupe - 19 November 2009 03:10 PM

ridenm - 19 November 2009 03:03 PM

As noted in a recent op-ed in Cycle News, it's incredibly ironic for Honda to be that last 250cc constructor champion, and ironic to see them struggle so much in the age of the 250-like 800s.

It would be ironic if they did indeed switch to 800 because as many armchair engineers supposed, the 800 would just be the RC211V minus a cylinder. But because they struggled, it's just one more reason to think the switch was not about dominance, not that that explanation makes any theoretical or circumstantial sense.

Why would they want to change the rules if they're already dominating? For Pedrosa? Please.

If you read about the history of HRC, particularly in the NSR days, many of their riders have been critical of the company b/c HRC are easily bored and always looking for a new challenge.

Doohan has said that a large part of his success was getting Honda to leave his bike alone and play with the other bikes on the grid (like when Itoh got fuel injection).

Honda have also openly admitted that they picked a V5 engine for the RC211V b/c they had already made I3s and V4s and they were bored by the idea of making another one. Honda are also the only Japanese company who refused to lease/buy the pneumatic valve technology from the Japanese engineering firm who had already done some transitory engineering of the system to suit motorcycles. Honda chose to adapt their own F1 pneumatic system.

Honda often stop themselves from winning but this new guy, Tetsuo Suzuki, appears to be out for blood and not technology. It will be interesting to see what happens to Honda in the near future.

BiaggisToupe - 19 November 2009 03:10 PM

ridenm - 19 November 2009 03:03 PM

As noted in a recent op-ed in Cycle News, it's incredibly ironic for Honda to be that last 250cc constructor champion, and ironic to see them struggle so much in the age of the 250-like 800s.

It would be ironic if they did indeed switch to 800 because as many armchair engineers supposed, the 800 would just be the RC211V minus a cylinder. But because they struggled, it's just one more reason to think the switch was not about dominance, not that that explanation makes any theoretical or circumstantial sense.

Why would they want to change the rules if they're already dominating? For Pedrosa? Please.

Honda pushing for 800's had NOTHING to do with them trying to change the rules so they could dominate. As BiaggisToupe said, they were already dominating with the RC211V. They didn't need to change the rules to win.

The 800 idea came up because in the beginning the prevailing wisdom was that the 990's would roughly be equivalent to a 500 (500 2-stroke * 2 more strokes ~= 1000). When the 990's started blasting down the straights to the tune of 220 mph it became obvious that their math was wrong.

When Katoh got killed it only bolstered the argument that the bikes were too dangerous, never mind the fact that he got killed in a corner with insufficient runoff room. But don't understimate the effect of Daijiro's death. He was Japan and Honda's great hope for a premier class champion.

BiaggisToupe - 19 November 2009 12:16 PM

robertorolfo - 19 November 2009 11:53 AM

No doubt it made them thing about safety, but I don't think the 800 idea was even conceived until years later.

It would take a better googler than me to try to pinpoint when the earliest hint of the plan for it was. The FIM's announcement came in June of 2005, and it was probably months of backroom deals in the making, so putting the starting point somewhere in 2004 (the year after Kato's death) would be a safe guess.

Many people connected to MotoGP described the switch being done for safety reasons.

Occam's Razor and all that.

Edit: this is also one of those issues where time brings out the hindsight sages. Even Rossi said in 2005 "For me, this development - to make the four-stroke 800 - is a good idea because if not the bikes will become too fast. Every year the bikes become faster and faster - the development between 2002 and now is incredible. Speed, acceleration, power - the four-stroke development is never ending - it’s not like the two-strokes."

The MSMA actually made their official proposal in May 2004 which means they had probably started working on it during the 2003 season. The MSMA originally wanted 900cc engines, and they wanted an anti-Honda weight limit designed to punish people who run 5 cylinder engines. The old rules had the same weight limits for 4 cylinders and 5 cylinders.

Links are always good:

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2004/May/040502b.htm

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=19585

From the MSMS presser:

The intention is not to reduce performance but to prevent a continuous improvement in speed and lap times.

Strangely enough the only proposal I saw at the time that would have made a serious dent in top speeds, Peter Clifford's idea to limit gearboxes to three or four speeds, was, AFAIK, totally ignored by the MSMA.

First off, as MM briefly mentioned, the main factor in Kato's accident was insufficient runoff or poor track design. The riders had been saying the track was dangerous... and unfortunately it took that incident to get it banned. The main conspiracy theory around the incident is/was that Kato's bike had an early version of ride by wire throttle on it, and that a problem with the system caused the crash (and Honda to shelve the system for a while). Again, just a conspiracy theory.

The overall switch was also said to be about slowing the bikes down and safety, but now that they have a spec tire they have a very effective tool for slowing everyone down equally (or preventing them from taking big steps forward). That is probably a big reason why 990's could be allowed back.

robertorolfo - 20 November 2009 06:04 AM

The overall switch was also said to be about slowing the bikes down and safety, but now that they have a spec tire they have a very effective tool for slowing everyone down equally (or preventing them from taking big steps forward). That is probably a big reason why 990's could be allowed back.

For whatever reason, Bridgestone seems to be working very hard at making the tires very sticky. The control tire doesn't seem to have made any difference in lap times. Maybe Ezpeleta should hire some goons to pee in Bridgestone's rubber vats.

Bridgestone pleased to see lap records fall

The easy way to slow them via tires would be to narrow the width - although they would then steer better. A speed gearbox would do it too.

Getting rid of TC would help reduce top speeds as well.