Audiophile426 - 08 November 2009 07:20 PM

Thanks for the info guys. I have another question tho. I read the section of the regulations about the fuel but im havin a hard time interpreting it. As i understand it the fuel is essentially gasoline with a small percentage being derived from biomass (probably ethanol). Is this correct and if so what octane is it? i know its quiet a bit more volatile than pump gas.

More volatile? No. Less. Much less.

It is higher in octane, no doubt, and there is where the misunderstanding probably comes from.

Higher octane fuel simply burns slower, and is LESS volatile than fuel with a lower octane rating. It contains no more power or energy or BTU's, nor does it ignite more easily; lesseasily, in fact. Higher octanes contain a larger percentage of heavier hydrocarbons than the lower octanes.

wilmywood8455 - 08 November 2009 09:28 PM

Audiophile426 - 08 November 2009 07:20 PM

Thanks for the info guys. I have another question tho. I read the section of the regulations about the fuel but im havin a hard time interpreting it. As i understand it the fuel is essentially gasoline with a small percentage being derived from biomass (probably ethanol). Is this correct and if so what octane is it? i know its quiet a bit more volatile than pump gas.

More volatile? No. Less. Much less.

It is higher in octane, no doubt, and there is where the misunderstanding probably comes from.

Higher octane fuel simply burns slower, and is LESS volatile than fuel with a lower octane rating. It contains no more power or energy or BTU's, nor does it ignite more easily; lesseasily, in fact. Higher octanes contain a larger percentage of heavier hydrocarbons than the lower octanes.

Octane is a complex subject, but I will try to simplify it. It is a relative measure of a property called the autoignition temperature. The autoignition temperature is the temperature required to initiate combustion in a fuel/air mixture. The high temperature can be a hot solid or spark in a cold mixture or the gases themselves can be heated. In general, higher octane is achieved by lower molecular weight (more volatile – meaning that it boils more easily), increased branching (complex rather than straight chain molecules), and unsaturated ring compounds. Oxygenated molecules (alcohols and ethers) also seem to be good.

As the compression is increased in an engine, it becomes easier for the heat of compression or a hot piece of carbon to ignite the fuel before the spark plug fires. In a diesel engine, this is desirable. Diesel fuel is rated by the cetane number which is the opposite of octane – higher cetane rating is lower autoignition temperature. Diesel contains large molecules (C12 to C20 plus) and has very low volatility.

Measurement and rating of octane is also very complex, but in the standard rating method, a molecule called iso-octane has a rating of 100 and thus the name. Iso-octane is fully branched. By contrast, normal octane (n-octane) which is linear has extremely low octane. Straight run naptha (C5 to C12) from distillation of crude oil in the refining process typically has very poor octane. In the old days they would blend in some tetraethyl lead to bring the octane rating up to spec.

In the modern era, the alkylation process reacts iso-butane with propylene and butylene using an acid catalyst to form pure iso-octane and iso-heptane (alkylate). The reformation process produces unsaturated ring compounds such as toluene and xylene (reformate) with an octane rating around 105 to110 depending on feed stock. Ironically, benzene is produced in the reformation process but, because it is carcinogenic, it is separated out and saturated back to cyclohexane.

Low lead aviation gasoline is mostly pure alkylate and reformate. F-1 gas is a secret, but it is believed to be a blend of molecules that are similar to reformate, because the unsaturated ring compounds tend to have a higher energy density (BTU value) than alkylate. Pump gas for your car is a blend of various refinery streams. It contains increasing amounts of alkaylate and/or reformate for higher octane, and thus the higher cost for higher grades.

I checked the regs. and found this. Reformate would be an aromatic. Olefins are molecules that contain a double bond such as propylene or butylene. Di-olefins contain 2 double bonds such as butadiene.

[The columns don't work because this stupid application keeps removing the spaces. Sorry]


19.4 Composition of the fuel :
19.4.1 The composition of the petrol must comply with the specifications detailed below :
Component...Units........Min.......Max.....Test Method
Aromatics...wt%....................40*.....GCMS
Olefins........wt%....................17*.....GCMS
Total di-olefins..wt%..............1.0.....GCMS
Total styrene and alkyl derivatives wt%1.0 GCMS
* Values corrected for fuel oxygen content.
In addition, the fuel must contain no substance which is capable of exothermic reaction in the absence of
external oxygen.

I found this interesting link on the ATL-UK web site:

http://www.atlltd.com/pdf/important/Formula%201%20ATL%20Clip.wmv

It's a video featuring John Wheatley of Red Bull and our own Steve Matchett showing us a typical Formula One fuel cell, explaining what a fuel cell is and what it does. Interesting stuff.

GreyWolf74 - 09 November 2009 02:25 AM

I found this interesting link on the ATL-UK web site:

http://www.atlltd.com/pdf/important/Formula%201%20ATL%20Clip.wmv

It's a video featuring John Wheatley of Red Bull and our own Steve Matchett showing us a typical Formula One fuel cell, explaining what a fuel cell is and what it does. Interesting stuff.

Nice takedown! +2P

Hey guys thanks for all the info. It is all very interesting. Sorry about my very delayed response. Ive been pretty busy lately. When i get some more spare time i will have many more questions.

Audiophile426 - 12 November 2009 07:54 PM

Hey guys thanks for all the info. It is all very interesting. Sorry about my very delayed response. Ive been pretty busy lately. When i get some more spare time i will have many more questions.

No worries about the late response, Audiophile. You get here when you get here. As for the questions, if you have them, we can find answers for you. Some of them may actually be useful! (Wink!)

GreyWolf74 - 13 November 2009 09:42 AM

Audiophile426 - 12 November 2009 07:54 PM

Hey guys thanks for all the info. It is all very interesting. Sorry about my very delayed response. Ive been pretty busy lately. When i get some more spare time i will have many more questions.

No worries about the late response, Audiophile. You get here when you get here. As for the questions, if you have them, we can find answers for you. Some of them may actually be useful! (Wink!)

And some may even be correct!

Answers 5 cents
Answers requiring thought 10 cents
Correct Answers 25 cents
Dumb looks free

IPSO, thank you for 6.1.2 ... you answered my question it is not allowed.

a little bit of math here...

A maximum of 400mm from center line => max width of 800mm

A max height of fuel cell of 475mm in the side pods. It could be a bit higher in the center behind the driver's head but by and large it has to be shorter than the distance from the reference plane to the max height of the side pods.

Estimates range from 50 gallons to 63 gallons which at a minimum is 188 liters to 237 liters. I use liters because a liter is 100mm by 100 mm by 100 mm and that makes it relatively simple math. SOOOoooooo the math works out to a minimum fuel cell length of something between 494mm and 623mm respectively for the 50 and 63 gallon sizes… THAT’S TWO FRACKING FEET!!!!

So the cars are going to be something like this?

for comparison this was 2010


How are they going to make the gas tanks that much larger without making the cars a stretch limo version of the 2009s?