rr60man - 09 November 2009 07:28 AM

GreyWolf74 - 08 November 2009 12:22 PM

Joe_B - 06 November 2009 08:45 PM

I've seen better from S. Park, it wasn't that funny. Instead of fags, they should have just called them a**holes.

throttler22 - 06 November 2009 09:09 PM

I agree about the use of a**holes vs. fags. Much better description of the Harley genre.

But the basic messagae about too-loud motorcycles is valid. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, hypothetically "Loud Pipes Save Lives," but when your Harley is louder and more annoying than some kid with a megawatt stereo system* thumping rap music, you might want to consider a muffler.

And motorcycle salesmen wonder why I'm not interested in V-Twin cruisers...






*(I know this because I live 1/4 mile from a major intersection and
the two loudest things are Harleys and "Bomp-mobile" stereo systems.
Building demolition, by comparison, is almost slient.)

Look up the doppler effect and you will find that Loud pipes only help with people behind and to the right of Harleys. Not much help there. Certainly does not make you seen from the front. Loud pipes just ruin our image, and political standing. That goes for Sportbikes too.

rr60, we discussed this a while back... and I'm no scientist, but I can tell you absolutely and without doubt that loud pipes can be heard ahead of the vehicle as well. The effect isn't the same as it is when behind, but it is still enough to draw attention (both good and bad).

Loud and obnoxious pipes do give off a bad image and are certainly abused by those small minded people. "Loud Pipes Save Lives" has become a joke... but the fact remains that noise is a very important part of alerting other road users. So I'd rather deal with obnoxious idiots than lose the right to have them.

And really, is anything more obnoxious that driving a car while talking on the phone? You are as dangerous as a person driving drunk (scientifically proven), and yet it doesn't seem to draw the same ire as the loud pipes stuff.

The 'loud pipes save lives' argument is perpetuated by people who also say that helmets are dangerous, and who usually pronounced the word 'helmet' without the 'L'.

Yes, Gary, you are right... and that is a shame because there really is some merit to the noise factor. But again, the bottom line is that people shouldn't be forced to go to extreme's in order to have Mommy in the SUV notice you (notice in the sense that she won't pull out in front of you, as opposed to "hey, look at me").

robertorolfo - 09 November 2009 09:28 AM

Yes, Gary, you are right... and that is a shame because there really is some merit to the noise factor. But again, the bottom line is that people shouldn't be forced to go to extreme's in order to have Mommy in the SUV notice you (notice in the sense that she won't pull out in front of you, as opposed to "hey, look at me").

Rolfo, you are wrong. There is no merit in the "Loud Pipes save Lives theory. Its blatantly unproven. There is no science behind the statement. In a nutshell the doppler effect is this:

For waves that propagate in a medium, such as sound waves, the velocity of the observer and of the source are relative to the medium in which the waves are transmitted. The total Doppler effect may therefore result from motion of the source, motion of the observer, or motion of the medium. Each of these effects is analyzed separately. For waves which do not require a medium, such as light or gravity in general relativity, only the relative difference in velocity between the observer and the source needs to be considered.

Now take into account the fact that the car driver has his windows closed and radio on and quite possibly a cell phone in his ear and the fact is the guy does not hear the bike until he is right next to him, or even past him. Of course this changes in the summer time if people are riding with windows down, but if the A/C is on forget the whole thing due to the noise of the blower.

Fact is that there is no merit to the Loud Pipes Save Lives, period. Show me some research which says there is and I might buy in, but I know the AMA says that there is no merit in the statement either.

First off, it isn't easy to say something is "blatantly unproven." It would be very hard to prove the negative in this situation.

Secondly, the Doppler effect is all well and good on paper, but in reality thing are different. A bike approaching a car from behind on an airport runway is very different to one on a freeway with other cars, a solid concrete guard rail, and all sorts of other fun things for the sounds to bounce around on.

And you are totally negating city driving. Limiting the argument to freeways only is silly. Visibility is key everywhere, but you don't have many people pulling in front of you perpendicularly on a freeway, or turning left in front of you.

But yeah, one night I'll stand on the sidewalk in front of my house and try to make a video with my cellphone... cause even the lousy quality should be enough for you to realize that you can hear a loud bike (or even a loud scooter) approaching from 200 yards away.

Yeah, if someone seals themselves in their car with the radio and AC on, they aren't gonna hear much of anything, but that proves nothing. It only proves that people can shut out extreme levels of noise if they want to. But this is not the basis of the argument that noise has no effect. Far from it.

The AMA and others don't like "Loud Pipes..." because it has been taken over by morons and hooligans. I don't like the saying either, but again, that doesn't mean there is no merit to it. Go out and ride an electric scooter sometime and tell me how safe you feel.

robertorolfo - 09 November 2009 07:39 AM

rr60, we discussed this a while back... and I'm no scientist, but I can tell you absolutely and without doubt that loud pipes can be heard ahead of the vehicle as well. The effect isn't the same as it is when behind, but it is still enough to draw attention (both good and bad).

Loud and obnoxious pipes do give off a bad image and are certainly abused by those small minded people. "Loud Pipes Save Lives" has become a joke... but the fact remains that noise is a very important part of alerting other road users. So I'd rather deal with obnoxious idiots than lose the right to have them.

And really, is anything more obnoxious that driving a car while talking on the phone? You are as dangerous as a person driving drunk (scientifically proven), and yet it doesn't seem to draw the same ire as the loud pipes stuff.

rr60man - 09 November 2009 10:00 AM

robertorolfo - 09 November 2009 09:28 AM

Yes, Gary, you are right... and that is a shame because there really is some merit to the noise factor. But again, the bottom line is that people shouldn't be forced to go to extreme's in order to have Mommy in the SUV notice you (notice in the sense that she won't pull out in front of you, as opposed to "hey, look at me").

Rolfo, you are wrong. There is no merit in the "Loud Pipes save Lives theory. Its blatantly unproven. There is no science behind the statement. In a nutshell the doppler effect is this:

For waves that propagate in a medium, such as sound waves, the velocity of the observer and of the source are relative to the medium in which the waves are transmitted. The total Doppler effect may therefore result from motion of the source, motion of the observer, or motion of the medium. Each of these effects is analyzed separately. For waves which do not require a medium, such as light or gravity in general relativity, only the relative difference in velocity between the observer and the source needs to be considered.

Now take into account the fact that the car driver has his windows closed and radio on and quite possibly a cell phone in his ear and the fact is the guy does not hear the bike until he is right next to him, or even past him. Of course this changes in the summer time if people are riding with windows down, but if the A/C is on forget the whole thing due to the noise of the blower.

Fact is that there is no merit to the Loud Pipes Save Lives, period. Show me some research which says there is and I might buy in, but I know the AMA says that there is no merit in the statement either.

First, in order for loud pipes to be completely unheard from in front of the motorcycle due to the doppler shift, the bike would have to be going at or beyond the speed of sound. Otherwise, you would hear it coming, but not as quickly as if it was standing still. You would also hear the engine at a considerably higher pitch.

Do "Loud Pipes Save Live?" Maybe and maybe not. The problem with loud pipes is, they don't have much effect on the people you'd hope they would, and they annoy the heck out of people sitting in traffic. Or at home. If soccer mommy has screaming kids in the car -- and is screaming at the kids in the car -- with a cell phone to her hear, she is not going to be paying attention to trivial matters like driving. I've seen situations like that where nothing could get through to a distracted driver. I've also had someone recently come charging out of a parking place and nearly launch me into the tall weeds. It's fun to find yourself suddenly in the oncoming lane because some dimbulb couldn't be bothered watching the road; or looking over her shoulder as she pulled out, or checking the mirrors or...

Well, you get the idea.

Once, when I was riding my bicycle in traffic, I had some woman in a maroon minivan turn a corner in front of me and force me to do a 180° turn into the Dunkin' Donuts parking lot, all the while watching that sheet metal cliff comming closer and closer to my left elbow. Only after she'd parked did she notice the rather angry cyclist -- me -- sitting there, with a murderous expression on my face. She just looked back and mouthed, "sorry," as if that would make up for almost killing me. Da idjit! In that case, I have a feeling she wouldn't have noticed if I'd taken my tyre pump and smashed a window-- which I was tempted to do, believe me. At least not until after she'd parked.

My loud pipes saved some lives. That's for sure. Specially bicyclists and pedestrians in cities.
And it saved my ass in traffic jams, not my live, but my ass. People tend not to switch lanes if there is something noisy they cannot yet see.

But that is not why I have them.
I like the sound of a single cilinder pumping air, the explosions of unburnt fuel or the suckback effect on closed throttle. And I can hear what my engine does while I wear earplugs to save my ears from windnoise around my helmet. Very useful if you don't have any way to see how many revs you are making.

Agreed AZ, in traffic they make a difference for sure.

Gray, with regard to your problems, I'd say that the sources are the ignorant drivers that only worry about what happens in front of them(obviously), and the lack of enforcement of the current exhaust noise regulations. You can put nice sounding pipes on your bike without breaking the limit... but some take it too far. I shouldn't be so hard to crack down on them, yet nobody does.

Azrifel - 09 November 2009 10:43 AM

My loud pipes saved some lives. That's for sure. Specially bicyclists and pedestrians in cities.
And it saved my ass in traffic jams, not my live, but my ass. People tend not to switch lanes if there is something noisy they cannot yet see.

But that is not why I have them.
I like the sound of a single cilinder pumping air, the explosions of unburnt fuel or the suckback effect on closed throttle. And I can hear what my engine does while I wear earplugs to save my ears from windnoise around my helmet. Very useful if you don't have any way to see how many revs you are making.

You wear earplugs?? No wonder you don't think there's a problem. A person can't hear them coming from behind them!! So in that respect they do no good.

All they do is startle me. If I'm in my car and I look in my mirrors and see you coming up from behind, I'll purposely cut you off. I HATE all these harley clowns.

Joe, I try not to admit to any activities that could be considered manslaughter (vehicular or otherwise) on internet forums. Just my policy, FYI.

Again, in a city, people can hear you coming. Pedestrians especially. On the highway, if the difference in speed to the car in front isn't too great, the person will hear you approach as well (again, within limits). This is reality.