thewon4 - 28 October 2009 08:44 PM

Never said they had massive problems with the cooling system. I said they had trouble designing a cooling system b/c the engine runs hot. I think that is a reasonable claim considering how low the compression ratio is compared to competing bikes in the segment.

No, what has happened is your typical pattern.

First make a statement that was totally wrong.

Second when presented with the facts you ignore it.

Third when pressed about the statement you try to manipulate it thinking the rest of us will ignore reality because of you brilliance.

Again I have made myself more stupid by continuing to try to discuss reality with you.

odie - 29 October 2009 04:37 AM

thewon4 - 28 October 2009 08:44 PM

Never said they had massive problems with the cooling system. I said they had trouble designing a cooling system b/c the engine runs hot. I think that is a reasonable claim considering how low the compression ratio is compared to competing bikes in the segment.

No, what has happened is your typical pattern.

First make a statement that was totally wrong.

Second when presented with the facts you ignore it.

Third when pressed about the statement you try to manipulate it thinking the rest of us will ignore reality because of you brilliance.

Again I have made myself more stupid by continuing to try to discuss reality with you.

I make a statement, I provide supporting evidence. People do research and find out that most of what I say is true, but they still don't necessarily agree with my statement. As a result, they put a hyperbolic version of my own words back in my mouth so they can commence with their rebuttal. I clarify what I said and I restate my case.

People cry.

That is the pattern. I don't care whether or not I'm right. The conclusions I've drawn are reasonable based upon the evidence. Either come up with something else, or quit crying.

http://www.onthethrottle.com/content/view/234/30/

"I don't care whether or not I'm right."

That is why in every thread, even on other boards, you do reams of after-the-fact Internet research to try to "prove" every inane statement you make.

If you are really that unaware of your own personality traits, I feel for you.

Otherwise, the dishonesty and disrespect you display is monumental.

How about some actual info about Rotax engines overheating? Not your "inferences" but actual evidence.

We agree again:

thewon4 - 29 October 2009 11:19 AM

I don't care whether or not I'm right.

This does seem to be your theme!

won4, I could care less about why a Rotax engine overheats! Maybe you could start a topic on that subject in someone else topic! I started this topic because my emails to the DMG group went unanswered. I wanted to know why the DMG group is so closed minded on technology and R&D;in their racing series. This topic doesn't need to go 65 pages, so let's just stop here. I've come to the conclusion from what I've seen and read, that DMG isn't scared, they just what to do things their way. A way that, as Al said to Page, "Doen't F up the show". R&D;and Technology just might mess up "The Show".

Maelochs - 29 October 2009 01:07 PM

"I don't care whether or not I'm right."

That is why in every thread, even on other boards, you do reams of after-the-fact Internet research to try to "prove" every inane statement you make.

If you are really that unaware of your own personality traits, I feel for you.

Otherwise, the dishonesty and disrespect you display is monumental.

How about some actual info about Rotax engines overheating? Not your "inferences" but actual evidence.

What do you think that video is? You didn't watch it did you? Because EVERY thread I post in I'm just drawing inferences that don't reflect reality. I think it is becoming very clear who jumps to absolutist generalizations.

I don't care about whether or not people are right. People are wrong all the time. I only care that people are drawing reasonable conclusions based upon the available evidence. I don't have patience for people who gargle marketing Kool-Aid or regurgitate conventional wisdom to state their case.

Odie didn't agree the engine overheats. Fine. I told him they had a couple of overheating DNF's. It turns out they only had one. Odie then dismissed the evidence, pointed out that I was wrong (about a minor detail), made up a new argument for me, and then commenced to whine.

So now you have the vid. Happy?

I didn't start a convo about the Aprilia. I simply said it runs hot as an aside. Odie said I was full of it so I made my case.

Commence with the personal attacks. They are the last bastion to protect your intellectual dignity.

thewon4 - 29 October 2009 04:13 PM

They are the last bastion to protect your intellectual dignity.

My intellectual dignity is offended every time I read one of your condescending posts. You post regarding a subject win which you CLEARLY have limited knowledge, and speak as though you are an expert on it, and insult those that are actually familiar with the topic for not seeing your wisdom in the matter.

Impressive stuff... It is fortunate that you don't care if you are correct or not.

Seems to me they had overheating problems because they were using stock radiators with an engine with drastically raised compression and they built radiators that fixed it. When asked about problems the crew chief mentioned rear grip, the rider mentioned the clutch. One guy talked about overheating and said he had the problem basically fixed by increasing radiator capacity – over stock.

And what motor, operated in race conditions, won’t make more heat than stock? No one (except Aprilia I guess) would ever go racing at that level in cars or bikes with a stock radiator. Running hotter in a race and with higher compression, than on the road with stock compression, is to be expected. That is not an issue with the motor overheating, it is an issue of insufficient cooling, which was solved immediately by improving the radiators.

(This all started, I believe, several threads ago when someone said Buells might sell if they didn’t have the ugly radiator fairings. That in itself is debatable—they didn’t sell before that, and I don’t know many riders who buy sport bikes based mainly on looks anyway, but that is a different issue … )

So Aprilia’s engine ran hot and was easily fixed by increasing radiator capacity above stock, just as compression had been increased above stock. Did it overheat after that?

Did the Buell’s engine overheat? Was there a problem with overheating with Rotax engines, beyond the first application in the Aprilia? How many engines did the Buell blow due to overheating? Have any clips of Buell mechanics talking about overheating?

Won4: “I don't know if the phenomenon is true for all Rotax engines, but overheating seems to be a problem for the larger twins they build.”

Besides one instance in one bike with one team, can you support that statement? After all, we all already acknowledged that Aprilia had one engine failure due to overheating.

Does the Rotax engine run higher temps than its counterparts? Is the Rotax engine regularly melting parts? Is there a history of big Rotax twins failing due to heat issues? Or did one team try to run the engine with insufficient cooling once and get taught an obvious and expensive lesson?

Where is this “trend” you somehow extrapolate from one instance?

This is like your misinterpretation of Johhnyp’s remarks, or your F1 thread about Japan being a low-downforce track. Or even your inability to mention a single other instance of a crossplane camshaft (not uneven firing order) in a production bike.

When you get it wrong you scour the internet for any related material, but you never consider that maybe you just got it wrong and let it go.

The real issue here is that you always pretend to be an expert, and wiser than everyone else, even when you make a mistake. Instead of just saying, “Whoops, missed on that one” you go searching for anything that can preserve the illusion (in your own mind, because none of us are fooled) that you know more than everything about everything.

“Condescending” was the word Garyb used, and most accurately.

You saw a video, decided that it represented a trend, and came here trying to pretend you know a lot. Someone else said it was a single instance in 40 starts (with that bike—and however many starts with the Buell, with no overheating) and said, pretty obviously one in forty (not even counting all the Buell starts) isn’t a trend.

You keep trying to defend that once in forty is a widespread condition.

The “minor detail” here is that you still haven’t supported your clam At All. You claimed a general trend and raised a single instance.

Look, either bring a bunch more proof or give it up. There is a whole lot of other stuff to debate and discuss.

garyb425 - 29 October 2009 04:48 PM

thewon4 - 29 October 2009 04:13 PM

They are the last bastion to protect your intellectual dignity.

My intellectual dignity is offended every time I read one of your condescending posts. You post regarding a subject win which you CLEARLY have limited knowledge, and speak as though you are an expert on it, and insult those that are actually familiar with the topic for not seeing your wisdom in the matter.

Impressive stuff... It is fortunate that you don't care if you are correct or not.

Read through my posts and see how often I instigate unwarranted aggression in the form of personal attacks.

I think you'll realize I'm usually responding to personal attacks from the resident warlords. I think you'll look back through this post and see that you accused me of being a whiner about literalism. Probably true, but I didn't stir up the hornets nest.

thewon4 - 29 October 2009 11:19 AM

I make a statement, I provide supporting evidence. People do research and find out that most of what I say is true, but they still don't necessarily agree with my statement. As a result, they put a hyperbolic version of my own words back in my mouth so they can commence with their rebuttal. I clarify what I said and I restate my case.

People cry.

That is the pattern. I don't care whether or not I'm right. The conclusions I've drawn are reasonable based upon the evidence. Either come up with something else, or quit crying.

http://www.onthethrottle.com/content/view/234/30/

If that was anyone else’s post I would think you had got the names backwards. As it is yours, go to post #61.

By the way you have been invited by to discuss your findings directly with the KWS-Millennium team. Their preferred method would be for you to join the WERA Forum. Chip Spalding (he was in your video) is very active there. His forum sign on is . My invitation for one of them to join this forum was declined. With posts like yours I can see how the rest of us get dragged down to your level. I haven’t read their forums much in a little over a year but if I remember correctly they would welcome your views and opinions.