smuff76 - 19 October 2009 09:13 AM

I think that is a good point Peter. If the ICS were to actually pull this off, and I'm not holding my breath that they have even thought of it at this point, all of a sudden the series is open to a whole lot more than the strictly US sponsor and fan base. Maybe there are companies who would only be interested in the international series and companies who are only interested in the US series. ABC Supply would have little interest in the International Series....... so lets say Foyt finds someone who wants to sponsor the International Series and they roll it into an asociate for the ICS too and they're better funded.

I also think the price tag on an International Series could be interestingly low. If you think about it, what's your additional overhead? You already have employees on the payroll right? So it's tires and fuel etc. but your not adding an equivalent amount of payroll.

You really think that the costs are low? You think Honda is not going to charge extra for engine leases? How about those extra gear box rebuilds? Free? Let's not forget about more crash damage.

If the ICS teams can barely afford to run the current sched where is the extra money coming from?

PeterNut - 18 October 2009 04:28 PM

Can anybody name a Apex Brazil product yet?

Beef Jerky. They gave it away at their display at Sonoma. It was quite tasty.

cliffc - 19 October 2009 12:08 PM

smuff76 - 19 October 2009 09:13 AM

I think that is a good point Peter. If the ICS were to actually pull this off, and I'm not holding my breath that they have even thought of it at this point, all of a sudden the series is open to a whole lot more than the strictly US sponsor and fan base. Maybe there are companies who would only be interested in the international series and companies who are only interested in the US series. ABC Supply would have little interest in the International Series....... so lets say Foyt finds someone who wants to sponsor the International Series and they roll it into an asociate for the ICS too and they're better funded.

I also think the price tag on an International Series could be interestingly low. If you think about it, what's your additional overhead? You already have employees on the payroll right? So it's tires and fuel etc. but your not adding an equivalent amount of payroll.

You really think that the costs are low? You think Honda is not going to charge extra for engine leases? How about those extra gear box rebuilds? Free? Let's not forget about more crash damage.

If the ICS teams can barely afford to run the current sched where is the extra money coming from?

Who said free?

Do the math. Lots of teams are doing the current ICS schedule for $4m + TEAM = $5.2m

17 races is 305k per race. I would pencil Indy in as 700k in the budget for a full program (wnat to use a different number, pencil it in). So figure 16 races at $4.5m and your at 280k per race. Your full time employees are already figured into that $ for the year right? So if that is the case then your employee overhead is already covered and doesn't add into your overhead for the "fantasy Indycar International Series". So lets call it 250k per race to run the international races. Sanctions pay travel expenses etc. and you could have an International Series TEAM program (instead of purses) which could pay your tire and engine lease. 8 races at 250k per race is $2m.

The whole point is that your opening yourself up to another world of potential Worldwide sponsors and on the international stage $2m is pretty much a bargain when you consider the other options and the fact that your about the only OW racing going on in the world.

On top of that it moves Motegi out of the "normal" season and gets rid of the huge gaps created by it and allows you to go to venues the engine companies your trying to get may be interested in, like their country.

Why do so many not want ICS to return to Oz? They've ran succesful events in the past. I don't think I ever heard a bad thing about them going to Australia except it's far away. But so what - if they want you and are willing to pay, why not go?

HuntheShuntFan - 19 October 2009 01:06 PM

Why do so many not want ICS to return to Oz? They've ran succesful events in the past. I don't think I ever heard a bad thing about them going to Australia except it's far away. But so what - if they want you and are willing to pay, why not go?

The thing is, they weren't willing to pay. Both Miller and Cavin reported that the money the Surfers promoters were paying the IRL was not enough to cover the costs. Teams had to dig into their budgets and the IRL had to add money to the purse.

And if you look back at what was said, the Surfers promoters clearly didn't care if they lost the IRL or not.

smuff76 - 19 October 2009 01:05 PM

cliffc - 19 October 2009 12:08 PM

smuff76 - 19 October 2009 09:13 AM

I think that is a good point Peter. If the ICS were to actually pull this off, and I'm not holding my breath that they have even thought of it at this point, all of a sudden the series is open to a whole lot more than the strictly US sponsor and fan base. Maybe there are companies who would only be interested in the international series and companies who are only interested in the US series. ABC Supply would have little interest in the International Series....... so lets say Foyt finds someone who wants to sponsor the International Series and they roll it into an asociate for the ICS too and they're better funded.

I also think the price tag on an International Series could be interestingly low. If you think about it, what's your additional overhead? You already have employees on the payroll right? So it's tires and fuel etc. but your not adding an equivalent amount of payroll.

You really think that the costs are low? You think Honda is not going to charge extra for engine leases? How about those extra gear box rebuilds? Free? Let's not forget about more crash damage.

If the ICS teams can barely afford to run the current sched where is the extra money coming from?

Who said free?

Do the math. Lots of teams are doing the current ICS schedule for $4m + TEAM = $5.2m

17 races is 305k per race. I would pencil Indy in as 700k in the budget for a full program (wnat to use a different number, pencil it in). So figure 16 races at $4.5m and your at 280k per race. Your full time employees are already figured into that $ for the year right? So if that is the case then your employee overhead is already covered and doesn't add into your overhead for the "fantasy Indycar International Series". So lets call it 250k per race to run the international races. Sanctions pay travel expenses etc. and you could have an International Series TEAM program (instead of purses) which could pay your tire and engine lease. 8 races at 250k per race is $2m.

The whole point is that your opening yourself up to another world of potential Worldwide sponsors and on the international stage $2m is pretty much a bargain when you consider the other options and the fact that your about the only OW racing going on in the world.

On top of that it moves Motegi out of the "normal" season and gets rid of the huge gaps created by it and allows you to go to venues the engine companies your trying to get may be interested in, like their country.

Sorry, but your math is flawed. Teams do NOT maintain the full crew year round. In fact, if you were to go to most of the ICS race shops today you would find at most a small crew there if they were even open. What do you think all these crew guys are doing all winter? Polishing the floor?

Sanction fees do NOT pay all of a teams expenses, that's why they need sponsors and ride buyers. So while your guys are enjoying a nice frozen Euro winter what do they do between races? Do they stay in hotels there or do they fly home? How about the cars? Where would they stay? Do the teams now have to rent shops or do the cars come back to the US? Which of those options are free? Not free? Well then who pays those costs? The sanction fee? Which Euro track do you think is going to pay the standard $1mil sanction fee PLUS the costs for freight for 22 teams? Most US venues don't draw enough fans to cover the $1mil fee. That's why there are no races at Phoenix or Cali or many of the ISC tracks.

F1 is about the only series that has the draw and sponsorship to do that kind of travel and even then governments pay for F1 to show up in some cases.

You really think Dubai wants to pay to have the ICS race there?

So my math is flawed....... do it at $280,000 per race and you need 2.25m for an 8 race schedule! On top of that you wouldn't even do 8 races the first year, you would do 4 or 5 maybe and build from there.

The only Euro track I mentioned was a track in Germany..... which would be in the schedule to make the manufacturer they are trying to get VW/Audi happy and get them a home race........ so I guess they would enjoy a nice froze Euro week in October!

There are weeks between races...... so you stick around the track for a couple of days after the race and work on the cars and then fly home for a week or so and then fly to the next race 3 days early and get back to working on the car. What's going on at Sazuka or Motegi right now? Think the garage is full? Think teams could work out of them for a few days?

No, every team doesn't keep the full staff on board for the off season. Some people get laid off, but your engineers and chief mechanics and some others are full time employees and spend the winter tearing down and rebuilding cars. The high dollar employees are on the pay roll year round, if you lay them off and someone wants them you lose them so you keep them on payroll.

Who said sanction fees pay ALL of a teams expenses? I said they pay TRAVEL expenses, which they do. Motegi does. CC's races were supposed to, no idea if they did. The original deal with Surfers DID pay all the travel costs for the teams...... that's when the race worked for CC and when the sanction got cut it no longer worked. It's not a new concept. The turnout for the CC race in Assen was 60-62,000. I don't know what the ticket prices were but that's a pretty decent crowd.

The governments help pay because an F1 sanction is between $25-40m depending on the race....... We're talking about 10-16% of that to host an Indycar race tops.

smuff76,

Personally, I think there are some great, underused, tracks around the world that would be able to support an efficient US based series. However, with the weak dollar and the desert that is the sponsor landscape, getting funding to do it would be tough. Your right about the initial success of the CC race at Assen. I think you could even get more than one race in England, with the current roster of drivers from the British Isles.

However, it has been said, in these boards, for the last few years, that racing anywhere outside of the US is just not worth it. There was a laundry list of reasons why. Some even said the time zone issue would mean NO ONE would watch the races.

With AIGP looking doubtful , there may be a spot for an off season series, but you would need FIA approval for all the events, which can be a tough thing. You would need tracks and sponsors all lined up. That's hard to do, here in the states..More so, in countries the series has no experience.

ok again ratings. 250k average out of 16 million and 250k out of 200 million or how many do you guys have these days?
So the timezone issue doesnt work, neither does the ratings in the usa. Face it, more people watch indycar outside of the usa. And that's ok, that's where the current open wheel audience is.

How can you guys keep calling it American Open Wheel?
Almost none of the drivers are from the us, the car is italian, the fuel brazilian, the engines japanse and the tires made from african rubber.

So uhmm how many more years is it going to take before they start dancing to the music playing and not end in a limbo?

PeterNut, I agree. I would prefer more American drivers but its not the end of world. I agree with going to Motegi,Brasil, and Surfers if it makes dollars and sense.