To answer your question at the start of this thread; no.

stonethecrows - 25 June 2009 11:58 AM

cloudman - 25 June 2009 11:48 AM

Now that FOTA And FIA have come to a compromise allowing F1 racing to continue as a single series, and now that Bernie Ecclestone remains supreme (along with CVC), and now that we can get back just plain racing, perhaps it would be time to discuss the idea of racing in North America, indeed the USA.

Let us consider where we should go racing:
1) Indianapolis, IN - world-class facilities with a new track layout, yet untried by F1, but well-like by MotoGP. currently midway between east and west coasts, and in the middle of sunny Indiana, where the deer and antelope play. Perhaps under a little controversy over who controls the George family; nonetheless, the site of the last 10 F1 races in America. The fans there might be more open to F1 racing with US team with hopefully worthy US drivers participating.

2) Watkins Glen, NY - out in Northern New York State, site of the early Grand Prix races in America. Close to Ithaca and other upstate cities for housing, in the same vein that Magny-Cours' location in France.

3) Long Beach, CA - site of the west coast Grand Prix for F1 in American during the 1980's, a good place for warm weather, fast women, and fast cars, but currently under contract for annual race in the spring with IndyCar racing.

4) Las Vegas, NV - home of the infamous Vegas Strip with a surreal facade and landscape, lots of sand, and faster women and warm weather. Site of two previous Grand Prix many years, but would bring a warm feeling to Bernie's heart to see Ferrari racing alongside the MGM Grand Hotel Casino.

5) Daytona, FL - home to NASCAR racing's mecca, with higher banked curves than Indianapolis, a full-road course, close to plenty hotels, warm weather with the occasional hurricane, and warm women.

6) Road America, WI - in the middle of "sunny" Wisconsin, near lots of hotels in the area of the Wisconsin Dells and Elkhart Lake, a well-established road race course, and near the current home of David Hobbs, and of course plenty of cheese. Close to Chicago, IL, which may be the site of Summer Olympics in 2016, if chosen.

7) Atlanta, GA - home of the petits LeMans for ALMS, with low banked turns and good road course, near plenty of hotels in Atlanta with good southern living style.

8) Laguna Seca, CA - in Northern California, with a challenging road course, but may be limited for passing. Track is well appreciated by MotoGP and road racers. In the middle of the wine country of California, and hence the inspiration for the corkscrew turn.

9) Detroit, MI - with road race course on Belle Isle, near the former home the big 3 auto companies of america, and with Fiat taking over Chrysler, perhaps may be open to development with money from Maranello, Italy.

10) New York City, NY - to be developed at an undisclosed location, for an undisclosed track layout in an area, where real estate prices have alway been at a premium, and under financial conditions, which are currently challenging to say the least.

Also - let us not forget - it would be good to get the race in Canada and perhaps Mexico reestablished, to allow the teams to divide the costs of travel over two - three races and allow for full North American experience. The Canada race would likely be in Montreal, ON at the Gilles Villeneuve speedway, although Mosport would be one alternative. The Mexico race would probably be in Mexico City at the local race track there.

Prolly not. As you said, Bernie reigns supreme and the current schedule is his doing. The only way I see F-1 back in the US short term, is at Indy since its the only track that is up to F-1 standards. And only if Bernie can cover his 500 million dollar annual debt by adding venues at a lower price. It is doubtful that IMS can come up with the sanctioning fee that is nearly double what the paid two years ago. And those two items are the problems with all the other fine tracks you list. They will take considerable upgrades for Formula One, and they will have to have tons of cash for Bernie to bring it there at all. Indy and all US venues are in the same situation as Silverstone, they are private ventures and so they don't have the sort of capitol to play with that government supported tracks do.

Furthermore, so long as Bernie is running the show Formula One is not going to travel to Detroit, or Elkhart Lake WI or Atlanta, it is beneath him and many of his fellow travelers to go to such thoroughly proletarian garden spots.
The good news for IMS is the man who talks to Bernie is no longer Tony George. The bad news for IMS is no one from IMS seems to be talking to Bernie.

Eventually BE will run out of new tracks to milk for millions and his cash cow will come back to earth with realistic sanctioning fees.

Just seeing the FOTA schedule makes me cringe knowing that Bernie keeps adding races like the Valencia Street Course. But for the US Grand Prix I think Road America is a good choice. With some money invested into the track it could be a premier motorsports facility. Think about it CART and Champ Car always raced at Road America. It was the perfect road racing track.

The major problem with Bernie and CVC scheduling races is they have a significant debt load they must make payments on annually, several million dollars per year. Hence there are high grand prix race fees. There was a chance for lower fees with the breakaway series under FOTA, which seems unlikely now. Any race in North America will need a major sponser to cover the $25-35 million dollar fee currently required by Bernie and CVC. That makes it financially unlikely for most track in America.

Tracks like Watkins Glen, Laguna Seca, Indianapolis have full safety / medical squads, when they have IRL and NASCAR racing, which follow similar safety standards to F1.

It is a shame that no one has tested a F1 race car on the circuit going counter-clockwise on the Indianapolis circuit. FIA had approved the new track layout for 2008. MotoGP has liked the track when they raced there the last two years.

I fear that Grand Prix racing in America, whether it be in USA, Canada, or Mexico, will suffer until the financial debt load for CVC is retired, and race fees can be lowered. That would make many more options available. Tracks like Road America and Laguna Seca need some upgrading before a Grand Prix race is possible.

The problem with the NYC track is it does not exist, on paper, let along in reality. Try a google web search for race tracks in NY State, and there are none, even on Long Island or New Jersey. The closest road course is Lime Rock, CT. All the NY state tracks are in upstate NY. I suppose they could develop a track near Brookhaven national laboratories on Long Island, but it is a good 30-60 minutes ride from Manhattan. Bernie's idea of developing track near NYC seems quite nebulous right now. Of course real estate is not cheap even in today's economic conditions.

I think President Obama would not take seriously offering any national money for auto-racing after the tight conditions he offered for bailing out GM and Chrysler. I think he would prefer to see the Summer Olympic in Chicago in 2016 first.

Realistically, if you don't use current existing facilities, I don't see F1 racing returning to the USA before 2014.

I would be interested in what the differences are between F1 and IndyCar or NASCAR racing for safety requirements.
IndyCar racing has speeds equaling that of F1, and NASCAR has cars much heavier, along with many more cars. IndyCar and NASCAR have pioneered many safety requirements like the HANS devices and wheel tethering earlier than F1.

The major requirement for Pit/Paddock seems to be an adequate size set of garages to set up at least two chassis with the requisite flat pads. The no-refuelling requirements for 2010 may make any safety issues for refuelling mute.

I think the major differences is whether VIP's & celebrities have adequate hospitality space, and that seems as much a question of the sponsers, teams and FIA as it does the track.

Note that Watkins Glen went through a full-renovation in early millenium befire IRL and NASCAR racing resumed there.

cloudman - 26 June 2009 01:32 AM

I fear that Grand Prix racing in America, whether it be in USA, Canada, or Mexico, will suffer until the financial debt load for CVC is retired, and race fees can be lowered.

It does actually look like Montreal will happen fairly soon. USA or Mexico not so much

The problem with the NYC track is it does not exist, on paper, let along in reality. Try a google web search for race tracks in NY State, and there are none, even on Long Island or New Jersey. The closest road course is Lime Rock, CT. All the NY state tracks are in upstate NY. I suppose they could develop a track near Brookhaven national laboratories on Long Island, but it is a good 30-60 minutes ride from Manhattan. Bernie's idea of developing track near NYC seems quite nebulous right now. Of course real estate is not cheap even in today's economic conditions.

I found a website that mentioned that his proposal was for a street circuit through Flushing Meadow Park. Could be fairly cool (especially if the course were designed with a hairpin around the Unisphere) but like you say, it's total vapor at this point.

I think President Obama would not take seriously offering any national money for auto-racing after the tight conditions he offered for bailing out GM and Chrysler. I think he would prefer to see the Summer Olympic in Chicago in 2016 first.

It would have to be local or state money, not federal, so there's no way it's gonna happen in NY. Actually, the one place it might be possible to get some public money is Vegas - much as I hate to say I agree with the dwarf, I've got to admit that his Vegas idea (infield circuit at Las Vegas Motor Speedway) is probably the best bet, long term.

Realistically, if you don't use current existing facilities, I don't see F1 racing returning to the USA before 2014.

Depends on whether Luca was able to get some serious concessions out of Bernie as a condition of the deal. Most likely you're right.

I wouldn't think local or state money when both have too many of their own priorities and what each would probably see as questionable investments, given the low profile Formula One has in this country.

And with the number of states and localities either cutting back on services or raising taxes to cover cost increases, it looks even more unlikely.

barryk - 26 June 2009 02:17 AM

cloudman - 26 June 2009 01:32 AM

I fear that Grand Prix racing in America, whether it be in USA, Canada, or Mexico, will suffer until the financial debt load for CVC is retired, and race fees can be lowered.

It does actually look like Montreal will happen fairly soon. USA or Mexico not so much...

I think Montreal is likely as well, especially as the Mayor of Montreal is interested in making it happan.

I think the USA is quite possible including existing tracks such Indianapolis, Laguna Seca or Las Vegas. Note that Las Vegas is only a two mile oval, so that an infield road course would quite short, probably less than two miles. I don't know what allowances for safety and medical provisions they have available there.

The problem with the NYC track is it does not exist, on paper, let along in reality. Try a google web search for race tracks in NY State, and there are none, even on Long Island or New Jersey. The closest road course is Lime Rock, CT. All the NY state tracks are in upstate NY. I suppose they could develop a track near Brookhaven national laboratories on Long Island, but it is a good 30-60 minutes ride from Manhattan. Bernie's idea of developing track near NYC seems quite nebulous right now. Of course real estate is not cheap even in today's economic conditions.

I found a website that mentioned that his proposal was for a street circuit through Flushing Meadow Park. Could be fairly cool (especially if the course were designed with a hairpin around the Unisphere) but like you say, it's total vapor at this point.

I looked into the street circuit around Flushing Meadow Park, which is in Queens, NY, and is at the old site of the New York World's fair. I agree that it is total vaporware for the time being. The park is quite large, but it would probably be only a temporary circuit at first, and thus the provisions for pits/paddock would similar to old Monaco before they built pits. I think any development there would depend on Mayor Bloomsberg's prognosis on the project.

I think President Obama would not take seriously offering any national money for auto-racing after the tight conditions he offered for bailing out GM and Chrysler. I think he would prefer to see the Summer Olympic in Chicago in 2016 first.

It would have to be local or state money, not federal, so there's no way it's gonna happen in NY. Actually, the one place it might be possible to get some public money is Vegas - much as I hate to say I agree with the dwarf, I've got to admit that his Vegas idea (infield circuit at Las Vegas Motor Speedway) is probably the best bet, long term.

I think Bernie had preferred to have a street circuit involving the Vegas strip, since the background skyline could be quite spectacular looking. Compared to an infield track at Las Vegas Speedway, that would be more appealing. Again the logistics of pit/paddock and safety provisions remain a question. I don't know if there is a way to do a hydrid circuit involving the Las Vegas speedway and the Vegas strip.

Of the existing tracks, Road America and Watkins Glen are solid tracks, which with little upgrading could be quite challenging circuits for open wheel racing. I think they would be long term projects.

There seems to be a difference in philosophies on safety between US Open Wheel racing and Grand Prix style racing, regarding how much concrete wall and "Armco" guard rails are tolerated around the perimeter of the track. US open wheel racers are quite resigned to the fact that when you spin out that you are going to hit something, and the public is usually well-protected, but closer to the action.

The more modern Grand Prix circuits have the spectators more distant from the action with a large gravel or asphalt perimeter around the race course, where a race car can decelerate and stop when they spin out. I guess it is symbolic of the more conservative nature of religion in America and Europe, where there is more circumscribed boundaries of behavior with firm consequences when you deviate from the norm.

Realistically, if you don't use current existing facilities, I don't see F1 racing returning to the USA before 2014.

Depends on whether Luca was able to get some serious concessions out of Bernie as a condition of the deal. Most likely you're right.

Let us wish for something better...

hhmag70 - 25 June 2009 06:45 PM

To answer your question at the start of this thread; no.

Ah well, it was more than a rhetorical question.

We here in the states do not give up easily on a challenge, much like England and the US did during WWII and the cold war.

I believe we can succeed, after we find some common ground and the F1/FIA leadership stabilizes after Max leaves.

We're not going to have a F1 race in America until the FIA reduces their insane sanctioning fees.