Hondanisti - 18 May 2008 01:27 PM

Dzu-Fast - 18 May 2008 01:05 PM

How many manufacturers would be interested or capable is another matter however .

Ford or should I say Cosworth Ford...

There was a time when most of the field had a DFV.

Not that I'm a fan of the idea...just pointing out that there has been a precedent.

We saw what an emasculated Ford single engine supplier did for CHAMP CAR.

Which is why I said it would have to be limited to no more that two teams . And strictly enforced .

I read Autosport's roundtable discussion with the principles, and it seems a consensus that the problem with Super Aguri isn't that a privateer team is an unviable proposition, but that Super Aguri's business model was inadequate to the task. As quoted elsewhere on this thread, what is needed is not only enough cash to purchase and sustain a team, but the resources to test and develop new chassis and engine combinations. Arguably the biggest obstacle to any privateer entering the sport is not just the razor's edge battle for any technological advantage that is the pro forma of F-1, but also the change of technology by fiat that complicates the start up of any new team at this point and increases the costs to the investors exponentially, without the promise of a return on the investment. Introduction of KERS and the possibility of slick tires and new aero specifications are challenging the teams with deep pockets, imagine being an investor looking at such a proposition, if you could start from lower than ground zero this would be the way.

Nick Fry seemed to be buttering his own bread in stating that more manufacturer's need to be brought into the sport. It would have been better said that if an independent team enters F-1 they should avoid an arrangment such as existed between Honda and Super Aguri which facilitated the collapse of Super Aguri in part because their relationship was more than supplier-customer; it was symbyotic. Honda should have benefitted from Super Aguri as a B team dispersing their costs of developing shared components. But because Honda was not only supplying drive trains, it was supplying chassis and aero and calling upon Super Aguri to provide benchmark data as they struggled to sort out the RA107, it seemed to behoove Honda to step in to Super Aguri over until they found a new sponsor. Ferrari will not do this for STR or Force India, Renault will not do this for RBR, Toyota will not do this for Williams and RBR will not do this for STR. The demise of Super Aguri cost Honda considerably, but the problem in this instance is not that there are not enough manufacturers, but that independent teams (as stated) have short sighted business models, and manufacturer's should beware of enabling such poor models.

Fry's comments about bringing in Audi, etc. is a red herring. The pool of manufacturer's with the means, much less the interest in such an endeavour is rather small. It wouldn't surprise me if the number of people who are interested in buying or creating a privateer F-1 team outnumber the manufacturer's who are thinking along the same lines. Audi, Porsche and Volkswagen's names are often dropped as possibilities, but Audi is a subsidiary of Volkswagen, and though VW is the fourth largest auto manufactuer in the world Porsche holds a 30.9% share in it. An entrance into F-1 would be made by the suits at Volkswagen AG and Porsche AG. Would a VW F-1 team improve their image and sell cars around Europe? For sure, but with a 100 mil annual investment VW would find it cheaper to give their cars away as a promotion. There's little to gain in an F-1 entry that the VW/Porsche/Audi group couldn't find elsewhere for less, or do without and put more money in the shareholder's pockets.

A better possibility is a manufacturer from within the Pacific Rim. A Korean manufacturer would have the means as well as the desire to establish themselves as a marque. In the short term, another independent team along the lines of Force India is much more feasable of an addtion than another constructor team. There are Billionares in China and Russia who could follow Vjay Mallya's footsteps.

In the long term, more true constructor teams will keep the sport technologically advanced and the competition keen, but independents will keep the sport interesting and fun for fans around the world.

It's my understanding that Honda did step in and was instrumental in introducing Magma to Aguri.

But the Magma talks died for whatever reason that we'll never know.

My take on it was: Once Magma (the Honda endorsed, "sustainable" buyout partner) was out, Honda was out.
I got the impression that Aguri didn't like the deal offered referring to the whole scenario as like dealing with a bunch of piranhas.
He certainly didn't have any kind words for Mr. Fry saying that he isn't the CEO of Honda and why was he even saying anything ?

It seems odd to me that on the one hand Fry said that he was involved in the Magma intros to Aguri and Aguri saying why is Fry even speaking about his team.


The other really interesting consequence of the Aguri ouster is the customer car row has become a non-issue because...drum roll please....
the TV money can now be given to all teams in F1. Since only the top 10 teams got TV cash , with Aguri involved in the series, 1 team would be left in the cold. Now that they're out, Force India/Spyker has no issues about the RBR / STR "situation" since they are guaranteed some cash. Funny how that works out.

Some cynically have said that Aguri's existence was only made possible by Honda's support because of the backlash that Honda faced when Sato lost a racing seat with the A team. Now that Sato's "importance" amongst Japanese fans has waned, Aguri became somewhat less important to prop up.


As for Audi/VW/Porsche, I don't know how many times they have to say that they're not interested in F1 because of it's lack of road relevance and non-relation to their racing program strategy or because of the Mosely affair but I think it's beating a dead horse to raise their name as a factory team to join in the battle at the current costs.


If you look at the rally WRC scenario where it is substantially a manufacturers series with several in play, who amongst those could step in ? Hyundai ? Skoda ? Peugeot ? Not likely.


So I come back to the question: who is Fry talking to ?

Hondanisti - 20 May 2008 11:20 PM

It's my understanding that Honda did step in and was instrumental in introducing Magma to Aguri.

But the Magma talks died for whatever reason that we'll never know.

My take on it was: Once Magma (the Honda endorsed, "sustainable" buyout partner) was out, Honda was out.
I got the impression that Aguri didn't like the deal offered referring to the whole scenario as like dealing with a bunch of piranhas.
He certainly didn't have any kind words for Mr. Fry saying that he isn't the CEO of Honda and why was he even saying anything ?

It seems odd to me that on the one hand Fry said that he was involved in the Magma intros to Aguri and Aguri saying why is Fry even speaking about his team.


The other really interesting consequence of the Aguri ouster is the customer car row has become a non-issue because...drum roll please....
the TV money can now be given to all teams in F1. Since only the top 10 teams got TV cash , with Aguri involved in the series, 1 team would be left in the cold. Now that they're out, Force India/Spyker has no issues about the RBR / STR "situation" since they are guaranteed some cash. Funny how that works out.

Some cynically have said that Aguri's existence was only made possible by Honda's support because of the backlash that Honda faced when Sato lost a racing seat with the A team. Now that Sato's "importance" amongst Japanese fans has waned, Aguri became somewhat less important to prop up.


As for Audi/VW/Porsche, I don't know how many times they have to say that they're not interested in F1 because of it's lack of road relevance and non-relation to their racing program strategy or because of the Mosely affair but I think it's beating a dead horse to raise their name as a factory team to join in the battle at the current costs.


If you look at the rally WRC scenario where it is substantially a manufacturers series with several in play, who amongst those could step in ? Hyundai ? Skoda ? Peugeot ? Not likely.


So I come back to the question: who is Fry talking to ?

My take is a little different.

I "think" Fry had every intention of getting rid of Super Aguri. He had his contacts with Magma make a public "interest" in Aguri while all the long having no real interest in getting involved. I believe he used Magma as a way to block other interests in Aguri and when those others went away, Magma dropped their interest and Super Aguri folded.

I'm starting to dis-believe everything that comes out of "Nick Speak's ©" mouth at this point.