rickoblue - 16 May 2008 10:55 PM

markconn58 - 16 May 2008 10:49 PM

jfme - 16 May 2008 12:35 PM

Renault needs to improve the car.

Just because a 2 x WDC finishes in the top 10 in a tractor, it does not mean his rookie teammate will do as well.

It just shows that the gap between a rookie and a world champion is much bigger in a midpack car than winning from pole in the fastest car of the grid.

Excellent point!

Or it could simply mean that the "other" rookie, was much faster than this one.

Or it could mean the other rookie was favored over his proven teammate.

E46ZCP - 17 May 2008 01:41 AM

Now we know why Flav traded away Heikki. Alonso needed a teamamte he could decimate before agreeing on a return to Renault. Flav foolishly traded away a better driver to McLaren in order to appease Alonso and in the process hurt Renault overall as a team.

Renault would have more points in the championship if Heikki were still there. I wonder if Pat Symonds was enthusiastic about trading away Heikki. I'm sure Alonso was.

Perhaps Flav just wanted Alonso [to help develop the car] more than he wanted to lose Heikki. He's not the dope you make him out to be.

markconn58 - 17 May 2008 08:08 PM

rickoblue - 16 May 2008 10:55 PM

markconn58 - 16 May 2008 10:49 PM

jfme - 16 May 2008 12:35 PM

Renault needs to improve the car.

Just because a 2 x WDC finishes in the top 10 in a tractor, it does not mean his rookie teammate will do as well.

It just shows that the gap between a rookie and a world champion is much bigger in a midpack car than winning from pole in the fastest car of the grid.

Excellent point!

Or it could simply mean that the "other" rookie, was much faster than this one.

Or it could mean the other rookie was favored over his proven teammate.

But the so-called favoritism started after Monaco right???? Don't you think Hammy had demonstrated more than Piquet at that point??? But really you have nothing against Lewis do you? Aside from neing annointed by the Brit Press of course. Not really his fault you know.

Considering the threads that we had in the pre-season after Piquet Sr. declared his son to be treated equally on merit and many
touting Piquet Jr to have an even chance of beating Alonso for the team lead, I find this thread a bit interesting now that it avoids those incorrect
predictions and turned the focus on Lewis Hamilton for some surprising reason.

The thread is about Piquet Jr. Let's face it : his abilities were overestimated.

It isn't so easy to go from a tester to a racer which is why Heikki's performance last yr should be viewed as somewhat better than avg.

Why people believe a "gifted" racer from say the IRL/CHAMP CAR group could just parachute in with raw talent and drive these aerodynamically unstable cars and the need for strategic racing and with no prior local track knowledge and do better than a veteran F1 driver to help develop a car that doesn't have a prancing horse or tristar stamp on it these days is somewhat baffling.

^ Overestimated indeed. I recall last year, when asked about the potential of the crop of Drivers in GP2 Flavio said he wasn't impressed by any of them. So why did Flavio drop Heikki and pick up Nelsinho? Alonso indeed would have demanded a team mate who was clearly a #2 to him. Yet there is a big difference between a supporting character in the pursuit of another WDC for Alonso, and being a perpetual lame duck who cannot get himself out of Q-1.

Was Nelson the best they could do given the time and money involved and the stipulations of Alonso's employement? I assume Heikki was contractually out of the picture by the time Fernando comitted to Renault. If Heikki was let go to avoid him competing with Alonso, that doesn't look so smart in retrospect. Letting Heikki go has put him in the circumstance of being well ahead of Renault and Alonso, so where is the wisdom in that? If Heikki were still at Renault Alonso would have a strong team mate who is picking up well needed points (and therefore cash) for the team. If Heikki were still at Renault I'm sure he would occasionally out perform Alonso, but that is what a good #2 does as well.

Nelson Jr. has a chance if he can learn from his mistakes and unlearn what habits are giving him trouble.

I doubt Renault will dump him mid season, but I'm sure this not an idle threat.

stonethecrows - 19 May 2008 11:54 AM

Was Nelson the best they could do given the time and money involved and the stipulations of Alonso's employement? I assume Heikki was contractually out of the picture by the time Fernando comitted to Renault. If Heikki was let go to avoid him competing with Alonso, that doesn't look so smart in retrospect. Letting Heikki go has put him in the circumstance of being well ahead of Renault and Alonso, so where is the wisdom in that? If Heikki were still at Renault Alonso would have a strong team mate who is picking up well needed points (and therefore cash) for the team. If Heikki were still at Renault I'm sure he would occasionally out perform Alonso, but that is what a good #2 does as well.

Well one could imagine and speculate that the Alonso camp negotiated for assurances of a non-repeat of the McLaren method of handling teammates and strategic preferences.

Flavio made very clear public statements in Sept 2007 before Alonso was hired that Renault by policy would adapt a clear cut #1 system and it isn't a stretch to guess that was part of the bargaining to get Alonso on board.


I agree with you in that one wonders what the scenario would be like had Renault kept Heikki ? It certainly would have left the remaining eligible drivers pool for McLaren at a "slim pickin's" level: Sutil, Pedro, Nelsinho, Fisi, Ralf, Klien.

Although rated highly, Sutil isn't at the same development knowledge / experience level as Heikki (who has Renault experience - a team who have won before with good processes in place).


A Hamilton / Sutil combination isn't as formidable as a Hamilton/Kovaleinin combination for car development. You wonder also then if Pedro would have been offered the job ?


But I don't think that's how Flavio and Pat approached the problem. They were concerned with getting Alonso first and not having intrateam conflict.
Heikki wasn't exactly putting out conciliatory statements of being a "good #2" in Sept/Oct 2007 either to Renault who were delaying his contract renewal and putting him in limbo.



Who is available for 2009 to displace Nelsinho and still be a # 2 to Alonso ? If Alonso leaves , depending on his replacement's needs and talent, Nelsinho may stay.

stonethecrows - 19 May 2008 11:54 AM

So why did Flavio drop Heikki and pick up Nelsinho?

But, that's not what happened exactly. Heikki was dropped in favor of Fernando. It was widely reported that Piquet's contract guaranteed him a race seat for this year. In order to keep Heikki, Renault would have to pay or buy out Piquet's contract which would have been difficult with Renault's budget and considering how much they likely are paying Fernando.

parmalat - 19 May 2008 12:44 PM

stonethecrows - 19 May 2008 11:54 AM

So why did Flavio drop Heikki and pick up Nelsinho?

But, that's not what happened exactly. Heikki was dropped in favor of Fernando. It was widely reported that Piquet's contract guaranteed him a race seat for this year. In order to keep Heikki, Renault would have to pay or buy out Piquet's contract which would have been difficult with Renault's budget and considering how much they likely are paying Fernando.

Why the delay on dumping Fisi then ?

Had Alonso gone to another team, do you think a Fisi/Nelsinho vs. Heikki/Nelsinho option was on the table ?

I don't recall a guarantee (thanks for the info). They left Heikki in limbo for a long time.

parmalat - 19 May 2008 12:44 PM

stonethecrows - 19 May 2008 11:54 AM

So why did Flavio drop Heikki and pick up Nelsinho?

But, that's not what happened exactly. Heikki was dropped in favor of Fernando. It was widely reported that Piquet's contract guaranteed him a race seat for this year. In order to keep Heikki, Renault would have to pay or buy out Piquet's contract which would have been difficult with Renault's budget and considering how much they likely are paying Fernando.

Didn't recall a guarantee either, but that would clarify the circumstances considerably. Thanks.

Hondanisti - 19 May 2008 01:09 PM

parmalat - 19 May 2008 12:44 PM

stonethecrows - 19 May 2008 11:54 AM

So why did Flavio drop Heikki and pick up Nelsinho?

But, that's not what happened exactly. Heikki was dropped in favor of Fernando. It was widely reported that Piquet's contract guaranteed him a race seat for this year. In order to keep Heikki, Renault would have to pay or buy out Piquet's contract which would have been difficult with Renault's budget and considering how much they likely are paying Fernando.

Why the delay on dumping Fisi then ?

Had Alonso gone to another team, do you think a Fisi/Nelsinho vs. Heikki/Nelsinho option was on the table ?

I don't recall a guarantee (thanks for the info). They left Heikki in limbo for a long time.

Fisi was lining up his test drive with Force India in mid November so he must have known that he didn't have a seat with Renault for 2008. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64060

I recall hearing the rumor about Piquet having a race seat for 2008 as early a last Spring. Piquet hinted at it even earlier in October of 2006 here (in addition there is the info that Piquet is signed to Flavio's management company which could be a factor in him getting seat):

http://www.inforally.sibiul.ro/formula1-news-7625-piquet_eyes_fisis_seat_for_2008.html

"Fisichella may retire in 2008 and if everything goes right, I should replace him," the 21-year-old Brazilian, signed recently as an official test driver for 2007, was quoted as saying by Reuters.

It was reported in August that Piquet, whose father and namesake won the championship three times, has signed a ten-year contract with team boss Flavio Briatore's driver management business 'FFBB'.

I found a reference from August to the signing by Piquet for a race seat here:

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/04082007/13/piquet-signs-08-renault-race-deal-report.html

Nelson Piquet Jr has now signed a contract to debut for the Renault team in 2008, according to a Brazilian sports newspaper.

The Rio de Janeiro-based Lance reported on Saturday that the Enstone based team's 22-year-old test driver, the son of the triple world champion of the same name, will replace Giancarlo Fisichella at the end of the current season.

Even as the negotiations with Alonso were ongoing, Flavio hinted that it would be Nelsinho pairing with him:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64054
From Nov. 19, 2007

"Renault will definitely have different drivers next year. There is a 60 per cent chance Alonso will be with us," Briatore was quoted as saying on radio show GrParlamento by Italian news service ANSA.

Briatore's words appear to spell the end at Renault for drivers Giancarlo Fisichella and Heikki Kovalainen.

Keep in mind, it would have provided a degree of leverage (though small) for Renault in their negotiations with Alonso, to promote the idea that they were considering many driver options including all the possible permutations of Alonso/Fisi/Piquet/Heikki versus two options that I think there were: Alonso/Piquet or Heikki/Piquet.

markconn58 - 17 May 2008 08:08 PM

rickoblue - 16 May 2008 10:55 PM

markconn58 - 16 May 2008 10:49 PM

jfme - 16 May 2008 12:35 PM

Renault needs to improve the car.

Just because a 2 x WDC finishes in the top 10 in a tractor, it does not mean his rookie teammate will do as well.

It just shows that the gap between a rookie and a world champion is much bigger in a midpack car than winning from pole in the fastest car of the grid.

Excellent point!

Or it could simply mean that the "other" rookie, was much faster than this one.

Or it could mean the other rookie was favored over his proven teammate.

You Fred fans will never let go of the fantasy that Mac screwed a 2X wdc for a rookie.
Pitiful.

Rusty Russ - 19 May 2008 03:06 PM

You Fred fans will never let go of the fantasy that Mac screwed a 2X wdc for a rookie.
Pitiful.

Can't tell for sure. What we do know is that Mclaren was not racing against Kimi, they were racing against Fernando...

jfme - 16 May 2008 12:35 PM

Renault needs to improve the car.

Just because a 2 x WDC finishes in the top 10 in a tractor, it does not mean his rookie teammate will do as well.

It just shows that the gap between a rookie and a world champion is much bigger in a midpack car than winning from pole in the fastest car of the grid.

exactly, it doesnt take much skill to drive a car that goes in the exact spot you point it while using a 2x WDC's set ups to aid your confidence. driving a car that doesnt go where you want it to go is a different story.

I'm not a Fred fan but I do see that with Renault, the combination of Renault engineering innovations and Fred's input has moved them from about 9-10th in the midpack to about 7th-8th for long run race pace, after 5 races and their car is improving.

We see that McLaren with Lewis and Heikki have to resort to running extra-ordinary strategies with a light fuel load and executing race craft perfectly in order to keep up with Ferrari's development for pace - especially long run race pace .


Ferrari stated that McLaren has picked up some ground on them in single lap pace after Catalunya but are working on that area now.


We'll never know if McLaren "screwed" ( I presume that to mean giving preferential strategic treatment in the second half of the 2007 season to Lewis) a 2 x WDC for sure. But I do get the sense that they must miss his contributions (from experience and firsthand detailed consistent driving impressions and pinpointed suggested solutions) to the discussion when you look at the relative rates of development change in 2008 ...this just after 1 major development round.

Another factor that could be hurting Piquet right now is that unlike with Lewis last year, Jr does not have the privilege of having access to Fernando's telemetry. If I'm not mistake this is a philosophy Renault have had for the last couple of years.

Even back when Fernando was still a young promise he did not have access to his more experienced teammate's info. Once even mentioning in 2004 on Spanish teli that he was prohibited to go to Trulli's side of the garage and that they were like 2 teams within the team. So maybe not sharing telemetry could be one of the factors hurting Jr getting up to speed quickly throughout the weekend.