Please this is NOT a pro-Ferrari thread, it's NOT a pro anyone or anything thread, and it is NOT a conspiracey thread. It's a tech thread to discuss:
How Ferrari appear to have such incredible mechanical grip at both high and low speeds.
Here is the basic concept:
Real time aero sensing mechanical shock adjustments
What I believe Ferrari have developed (within the F1 rules/regulations) is a shock system this is mechanically adjusted on the fly by air pressure flowing over/in the car.
Some things to note:
1. Ferrari have very good mechanical grip everywhere, fast and low speed corners
2. At low speeds the car goes over curbs like they don't exist (indicating soft suspension).
3. At high speeds they do NOT like curbs (aka Massa spin at Maylasia on high speed curb).
4. Onboard footage of the wheel shudder at turn-in (Turkey race) at very low speed corners on Kimi's ferrari (this would indicate supersoft suspension with a lot of mechanical grip)
5. Ferrari being EXTREMELY sensitive about their shock technology (think failure of the system when Kimi crashed in Monza last year braking over a bump)
6. Ferrari seems to love the soft compound tires and is very good with tire wear
Having the ability to change shock settings in real time based on air pressure could allow the team to run softer springs and lower ride height which in turn could also allow them to run less wing (hence higher top speeds) and in turn make tire wear considerably better and hence soft compound option.
How exactly they've managed to get air pressure to mechanically adjust shocks is beyond my understanding, but this is F1 where the boundaries of technology are pushed. And this is my theory.
10.1.2 The suspension system must be so arranged that its response results only from changes in load applied to the wheels.
10.2.2 Any powered device which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the performance of any part of the suspension system is forbidden.
10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to the suspension system while the car is in motion.
10.1.2 - no violate there, the load applied to the wheels is changing (aka downforce)
10.2.2 - no violation there either, it's not a powered device, it driven by air pressure from inlet tube with direct relationship to speed
10.2.3 - this is the gray area, technically you could argue this is a natural driven device and it is not an "Adjustment" -- if this defined in another way then the forced air into the engine would also have to be considered a power "adjustment" -- and the downforce generate by wings would also have to be consider an "adjustment".
10.1.2 - no violate there, the load applied to the wheels is changing (aka downforce)
Wrong. This rule means the only thing that can cause the suspension to react in any way is the forces, or load, that is applied to the wheel. Your theory adds another load, the air pressure.
V8VENOM - 13 May 2008 03:29 PM
10.2.2 - no violation there either, it's not a powered device, it driven by air pressure from inlet tube with direct relationship to speed
Wrong. The device (whether it is a valve or some kind of gearing attached to the shock absorber) is powered by the air pressure collected by the pitot tube. The rule doesn't specify that it is an electrical or other kind of motor. By the way, even if it was legal it wouldn't be practical as the speed it is related to isn't the speed of the car but the speed of the air moving over the car. In other words the speed of the wind and whether the car was facing into, across, or away from the wind would have an effect on how the shock absorber was adjusted. The suspension would be adjusting mid-turn as you turn away from or into the wind.
V8VENOM - 13 May 2008 03:29 PM
This .10.2.3 - this is the gray area, technically you could argue this is a natural driven device and it is not an "Adjustment" -- if this defined in another way then the forced air into the engine would also have to be considered a power "adjustment" -- and the downforce generate by wings would also have to be consider an "adjustment".
Wrong. There is no gray area here. An adjustment is an adjustment. Something is being altered or changed on the suspension while the car is moving. This rule is specifically talking about the suspension.
10.1.2 - no violate there, the load applied to the wheels is changing (aka downforce)
10.2.2 - no violation there either, it's not a powered device, it driven by air pressure from inlet tube with direct relationship to speed
10.2.3 - this is the gray area, technically you could argue this is a natural driven device and it is not an "Adjustment" -- if this defined in another way then the forced air into the engine would also have to be considered a power "adjustment" -- and the downforce generate by wings would also have to be consider an "adjustment".
These rules stem from the "active age" of F1, any "action" resulting in a change in the suspension other than natural forces acting on the wheels is forbidden. Even adjustable sway bars are illegal with these rules. Nothing gray about the word adjustment....."any adjustment to the suspension while the car is in motion" .. changing the shock is adjusting.... having air flow over a wing or into an engine is an act of nature, just like hitting a bump is..
By the way, using air pressure in shocks is quite common, but adding or taking away nitrogen pressure from currently designed shocks does little more than make it act only slightly different, not enough "change" to do the things you are identifying. You could actually change the air pressure through 200 lbs of pressure and not affect the shock in anyway you described. Except maybe getting the shock down too low in air pressure, then all you would do is cavitate the oil in shock and make it act really weird and uncontrollable.
The only way to do what your describing was tried with air bag suspension (replacing the springs) I believe, in the 70's (Brabham) and then on the active cars (hydraulic ramps, computer controlled, no springs, no sway bars and no shocks) in the early 90's. While using only air in shocks is possible, using a "thin oil base" has been widely used with a nitrogen cell (separated from the oil) to control the compression of the oil and with an acting pressure to keep air from being created in the oil.
Ferrari are running Inerters (aka J Dampers), a Mclaren inspired technology they started racing last year around Monza. This is partly where the new mechanical grip is coming from. There is no active or pneumatic system on the car...
Having said that Mac have been running Inerters for 3 years so I dont where their mech grip has gone this year...?
Ferrari are running Inerters (aka J Dampers), a Mclaren inspired technology they started racing last year around Monza. This is partly where the new mechanical grip is coming from. There is no active or pneumatic system on the car...
Having said that Mac have been running Inerters for 3 years so I dont where their mech grip has gone this year...?
Scarbs
As far as I know, the J Damper isn't air controlled...
And maybe it's Ferrari's grip that has gotten better than Mclaren's, and Mclaren has lost ground to them.....
There's no shocks on the car?? Shocks are a pneumatic systems by definition, but are reactive.... If I understand correctly, Ferrari is using a rotary shock rather than the typical shock absorber, except on the J damper....
Ferrari are running Inerters (aka J Dampers), a Mclaren inspired technology they started racing last year around Monza. This is partly where the new mechanical grip is coming from. There is no active or pneumatic system on the car...
Having said that Mac have been running Inerters for 3 years so I dont where their mech grip has gone this year...?
Scarbs
As far as I know, the J Damper isn't air controlled...
And maybe it's Ferrari's grip that has gotten better than Mclaren's, and Mclaren has lost ground to them.....
There's no shocks on the car?? Shocks are a pneumatic systems by definition, but are reactive.... If I understand correctly, Ferrari is using a rotary shock rather than the typical shock absorber, except on the J damper....
Thats right the J damper is a purely mechanical device, no compressed air and Ferrari are better for grip this year.
There are Shocks and they arent pneumatic (not even by definition - i.e. via compressed air) Ferrari dropped the rotary shocks this year for Linear ones.
(telescopic) ones
Ferrari are running Inerters (aka J Dampers), a Mclaren inspired technology they started racing last year around Monza. This is partly where the new mechanical grip is coming from. There is no active or pneumatic system on the car...
Having said that Mac have been running Inerters for 3 years so I dont where their mech grip has gone this year...?
Scarbs
As far as I know, the J Damper isn't air controlled...
And maybe it's Ferrari's grip that has gotten better than Mclaren's, and Mclaren has lost ground to them.....
There's no shocks on the car?? Shocks are a pneumatic systems by definition, but are reactive.... If I understand correctly, Ferrari is using a rotary shock rather than the typical shock absorber, except on the J damper....
Thats right the J damper is a purely mechanical device, no compressed air and Ferrari are better for grip this year.
There are Shocks and they arent pneumatic (not even by definition - i.e. via compressed air) Ferrari dropped the rotary shocks this year for Linear ones.
(telescopic) ones
Please this is NOT a pro-Ferrari thread, it's NOT a pro anyone or anything thread, and it is NOT a conspiracey thread. It's a tech thread to discuss:
How Ferrari appear to have such incredible mechanical grip at both high and low speeds.
Here is the basic concept:
Real time aero sensing mechanical shock adjustments
What I believe Ferrari have developed (within the F1 rules/regulations) is a shock system this is mechanically adjusted on the fly by air pressure flowing over/in the car.
Some things to note:
1. Ferrari have very good mechanical grip everywhere, fast and low speed corners
2. At low speeds the car goes over curbs like they don't exist (indicating soft suspension).
3. At high speeds they do NOT like curbs (aka Massa spin at Maylasia on high speed curb).
4. Onboard footage of the wheel shudder at turn-in (Turkey race) at very low speed corners on Kimi's ferrari (this would indicate supersoft suspension with a lot of mechanical grip)
5. Ferrari being EXTREMELY sensitive about their shock technology (think failure of the system when Kimi crashed in Monza last year braking over a bump)
6. Ferrari seems to love the soft compound tires and is very good with tire wear
Having the ability to change shock settings in real time based on air pressure could allow the team to run softer springs and lower ride height which in turn could also allow them to run less wing (hence higher top speeds) and in turn make tire wear considerably better and hence soft compound option.
How exactly they've managed to get air pressure to mechanically adjust shocks is beyond my understanding, but this is F1 where the boundaries of technology are pushed. And this is my theory.
