I know part of DMG's reasoning for making 600's their premier class is to keep costs down but isn't it really the rules on what modifications are allowed that skyrocket the costs? I mean if you had the exact same rules for a 600 series and a 1000 series, the 1000 series would be slightly more to contest but not exponentially so or am I missing something?
In addition they like to tout the number of manufacturers that can contest the DMG superbike series since it would follow the FX rules. But wouldn't you be able to get almost the same number of factories involved in a 1000 cc series? You could have Honda, Kawi, Suzuki, Yamaha, BMW, Ducati, KTM, Buell, and Aprilia.
You are correct DR - it isn't the size of the holes in the block that determine the price. I can guarantee you that 800cc MotoGP bikes are more expensive to race than 990s were.
I think part of DMG's plan is that lower displacement bikes will be slower and they can bring some tracks like Loudon - but 600's have a higher corner speed so it's stupid logic imo.
Here's a link to an article on Cycle World with Bill Syfan. It has a some interesting information - like they aren't looking for a spec ECU but an electronic monitoring device that would enable them to detect TC or other illegal electronic aids.
If DMG is so about safety then making traction control illegal is a DUMB move. You will certainly see a lot more highsides in their 'entertainment' series. And with the riders all bunched up the carnage would be deadly! They want to bring in more tracks by slowing down the race instead of holding the races at better equipped tracks??? WTF!!! The whole thing stinks on ice! It is plain to see the main driving force of DMG is money. Rolling starts and pace cars??? C'mon!?! Motorcycle racing is not the same as car racing and never will be! If DMG has its way riders will die! American road racing will be a circus of carnage.
Look up the MotoST race at Iowa last year if you want to really know how Edmondson feels about safety. I don't even think it's about money anymore. DMG just wants control. I doubt they even care what the end results are as long as they are calling the shots in the major American road racing series. Just like Tony George, it may be a shadow of what it once was, as long as they control the shadow.
In addition they like to tout the number of manufacturers that can contest the DMG superbike series since it would follow the FX rules. But wouldn't you be able to get almost the same number of factories involved in a 1000 cc series? You could have Honda, Kawi, Suzuki, Yamaha, BMW, Ducati, KTM, Buell, and Aprilia.
Sorry but you'll have to replace the Buell with MV Agusta. Just got to read this month's Cycle World earlier tonight. They compared the new water cooled Buell 1125 with the 848 and guess what. The times at Willow Springs with a racer on board: Ducati 1:00.69 Buell 1:01.03. I bet the 600 horsepower limit will be 134 (what CW had listed for the Buell). I just wonder how DMG is going to justify putting it in the 600 Superbike class.
As an anti-TC person I'm not going to complain about doing away with that, but the bikes they are looking at are down so much in power high-sides shouldn't be a huge issue anyway - especially if they get their wish and kill 1000cc racing. Keep in mind they want to make privateers competitive and only larger teams can set-up TC effectively as far as I know.
Don't worry Odie, they'll find a way to get the Buell in!
Read the CW interview, and as usual feel the need to hurl. The more I read of this DMG concept the sadder I get. There can be no doubt they are looking for "close racing" that will inevitably produce wrecks a la the roundy-round wreck 'em bumper cars - SAD indeed.
Weltmer, highsides are as much a part of motorcycle racing as 2 wheels are. TC is not the type safety DMG is talking about by downsizing CCs. they are talknig about track safety, not bike castrating safety. if it's not obvious by now, none of the US tracks are gonna dump loads towards safety all at once. yamaha money is the only reason laguna is safer. the options are either find a way to race the tracks you have in a safer manner or race them as they are. fast, across the board, track improvments are an uneducated pipe dream.
garyb425 - 13 May 2008 08:41 AM
... the bikes they are looking at are down so much in power high-sides shouldn't be a huge issue anyway
... the bikes they are looking at are down so much in power high-sides shouldn't be a huge issue anyway
please tell me that was exageration for effect.
You are seeing more 600's high-siding than 1000's? Didn't you just give a dissertation on discretionary horsepower regarding 1000cc vs 600cc? For EXACTLY the same reason you will see fewer 600s high-side than 1000s. Do 600s high-side? Of course. Are 1000s more likely to high-side? I believe the answer is yes. Spare me the 'not if they are both coming out of a 30 mph corner' argument, I am talking in general. The greater the power the easier it is to break the rear-end loose.
edit: I would assume TC is legal in FX - which teams are running it?
... the bikes they are looking at are down so much in power high-sides shouldn't be a huge issue anyway
please tell me that was exageration for effect.
You are seeing more 600's high-siding than 1000's? Didn't you just give a dissertation on discretionary horsepower regarding 1000cc vs 600cc? For EXACTLY the same reason you will see fewer 600s high-side than 1000s. Do 600s high-side? Of course. Are 1000s more likely to high-side? I believe the answer is yes. Spare me the 'not if they are both coming out of a 30 mph corner' argument, I am talking in general. The greater the power the easier it is to break the rear-end loose.
edit: I would assume TC is legal in FX - which teams are running it?
i didn't say or imply any of that. sure more power lends to likelier highsides. what i read from you was that the 600s would be "down so much in power high-sides shouldn't be a huge issue". a 600 has plenty of motor for highsided. i guess "huge" is in the eye of the beholder.
honestly, argueing removal of highsides for safety is silly. the only way to do that is to go race cars.
Weltmer, highsides are as much a part of motorcycle racing as 2 wheels are. TC is not the type safety DMG is talking about by downsizing CCs. they are talknig about track safety, not bike castrating safety. if it's not obvious by now, none of the US tracks are gonna dump loads towards safety all at once. yamaha money is the only reason laguna is safer. the options are either find a way to race the tracks you have in a safer manner or race them as they are. fast, across the board, track improvments are an uneducated pipe dream.
garyb425 - 13 May 2008 08:41 AM
... the bikes they are looking at are down so much in power high-sides shouldn't be a huge issue anyway
please tell me that was exageration for effect.
I don't understand what your trying to say. Are you saying since most American road courses are not as safe as they should be the solution is to reduce power and race on ovals? How is that an improvement?
Weltmer, highsides are as much a part of motorcycle racing as 2 wheels are. TC is not the type safety DMG is talking about by downsizing CCs. they are talknig about track safety, not bike castrating safety. if it's not obvious by now, none of the US tracks are gonna dump loads towards safety all at once. yamaha money is the only reason laguna is safer. the options are either find a way to race the tracks you have in a safer manner or race them as they are. fast, across the board, track improvments are an uneducated pipe dream.
garyb425 - 13 May 2008 08:41 AM
... the bikes they are looking at are down so much in power high-sides shouldn't be a huge issue anyway
please tell me that was exageration for effect.
I don't understand what your trying to say. Are you saying since most American road courses are not as safe as they should be the solution is to reduce power and race on ovals? How is that an improvement?
It's reality. American road courses don't have millions of dollars to pour into track safety all at once. It'll take baby steps.
So how much does air fence cost? It seems that the tracks can't even put up the money for that let alone permanent changes to the course.
I know it is all a matter of economics but it would seem the laws of supply and demand should make some of this happen. If riders and race organizers "demand" improved safety then the tracks would have to "supply" that or risk losing their race. But seriously look at the new tracks that have been built over the last 5-10 years, Barber, Miller, Jersey Motor Sports is opening soon, even Indy, and I know there have been some others so there is an increasing supply of tracks and a limited number of races. If a track owner isn't improving his venue then he is at risk to lose his race. Just look at Brainerd, I know there were some other issues there but I'm sure it will be hard for them to get an AMA race back now that they have lost it.
I would think even the track day organizers would be interested in most of the same type of safety improvements so it is not like all this would be done for one event.
Again I know we are talking about large sums of money so nothing is going to happen quickly but the more progressive owners (like Barber) are going to continue to make improvements to their tracks and other owners will get left behind.
... the bikes they are looking at are down so much in power high-sides shouldn't be a huge issue anyway
please tell me that was exageration for effect.
You are seeing more 600's high-siding than 1000's? Didn't you just give a dissertation on discretionary horsepower regarding 1000cc vs 600cc? For EXACTLY the same reason you will see fewer 600s high-side than 1000s. Do 600s high-side? Of course. Are 1000s more likely to high-side? I believe the answer is yes. Spare me the 'not if they are both coming out of a 30 mph corner' argument, I am talking in general. The greater the power the easier it is to break the rear-end loose.
edit: I would assume TC is legal in FX - which teams are running it?
Factory Honda,Kawasaki,Suzuki,Ducati teams all use TC in FX! Yamaha runs their SS machine.
... the bikes they are looking at are down so much in power high-sides shouldn't be a huge issue anyway
please tell me that was exageration for effect.
You are seeing more 600's high-siding than 1000's? Didn't you just give a dissertation on discretionary horsepower regarding 1000cc vs 600cc? For EXACTLY the same reason you will see fewer 600s high-side than 1000s. Do 600s high-side? Of course. Are 1000s more likely to high-side? I believe the answer is yes. Spare me the 'not if they are both coming out of a 30 mph corner' argument, I am talking in general. The greater the power the easier it is to break the rear-end loose.
edit: I would assume TC is legal in FX - which teams are running it?
Factory Honda,Kawasaki,Suzuki,Ducati teams all use TC in FX! Yamaha runs their SS machine.[/quote
As an AMA Privateer, I think what DMG is trying to do is level the playing field. I feel this is something that is long overdue and is a great concept. Even in supersport we do not get the opportunity to run the same tires the factorys run. Not to mention all the super trick electronics and unobtainable ECU's. I think some change will do this sport good. Not sink it, like so many of you think. I look forward to racing in 2009 under DMG! I think it will open alot of mutch needed new opportunity for our sport.
The more I read of this DMG concept the sadder I get. There can be no doubt they are looking for "close racing" that will inevitably produce wrecks a la the roundy-round wreck 'em bumper cars - SAD indeed.
