John W has some excellent ideas about air being channelled through the radiator openings in the side pods to create drag!! My question is if the air is distributed properly entering low rising in the middle and exiting low could this possibly decrease down-force???
Don't think so, as long as the exit is not pointed downword. Hmm..WWII fighter aircraft sometimes shaped radiater ducts in a way that acclerated the air flow as it was heated by the radiaters, thus gaining some thrust. Clever...
another note: Flat bottoms do not eliminate underbody downforce. F-1 uses front splitters and rear diffusers to create quite a bit of downforce, despite the flat bottoms. In fact, the DP01 undertray is mostly flat, with one large inlet channel per side at the front end that tapers down to a flat bottam that terminates in three difusers per side at the rear.
The IRL should concentrate on how the downforce on the following car is affected. If they can reduce the amount of downforce taken away when following a car you will see much more exciting racing.
That was the idea behind Lola's chassis for A1GP. It seemed to be somewhat effective. Wasn't that one of the ideas of the DP01 as well?
Personally, my problem with this whole exercise is that it seeks to design "the next Indy car," and I don't get the sense they mean the basic design ethos for a new formula, but rather (yawn) another spec chassis. Hope I'm wrong. I also hope they don't seriously mean to increase drag further...the cars are already flying bricks, and I say this as a guy who mainly followed and enjoyed the IRL side of the split.
Personally, my problem with this whole exercise is that it seeks to design "the next Indy car," and I don't get the sense they mean the basic design ethos for a new formula, but rather (yawn) another spec chassis.
I would say that is EXACTLY what they are looking to do. Spec wasa BAD word, when the IRL had two chassis. Now that they don't , a spec series is great for cost containment. Go figure.
Spec is a bad word for every series when they have multiple chassis........ right up until they are struggling and the spec chassis is cheaper, then it is great........... (cough dp-01 cough).
I would just as soon the series brought out a new car and allowed no development and then took info from the teams and internally developed the car each year until the series is healthy........ rotate the car out in 4 years (m/l) and then when (if) you have well-funded teams you can bring in a new car and allow minor developments like the current rules. The healthier the series the more development you can allow, although cost containment should be a VERY high priority.
Have a common tub and let the teams do whatever they want. If butt ugly is the best and fastest so be it. I (we) hate it when all the cars are the same but the paint job.
Spec is a bad word for every series when they have multiple chassis........ right up until they are struggling and the spec chassis is cheaper, then it is great........... (cough dp-01 cough).
Ah, but there is a big difference between the DP01 spec and the IRL spec.
The DP01 was designed to IMPROVE the racing and to reduce costs. I was a new car with better ideas was the goal.
The IRL has fallen into a spec series because of their own rules. They are just left with a single chassis by default. It still costs the same to maintain it, which is more than it was for the DP01, and the only savings you have is they don't need to buy a new chassis.
touche....... of course I forgot the Dallara was designed to make the racing worse and be more expensive.
bd
The IRL became a spec series because Dallara and the teams who ran the chassis spent more money developing all the little bits than Panoz and the teams who ran it. The tire rule didn't help, but it wasn't the only thing that held it back.
To be honest I don't know what it costs to maintain a Dallara compared to the old Raynard's, Lola's or the DP-01. Champ Car didn't "need" to buy a new chassis, like you said, the chose to in order to improve the racing and it was cheaper. The dallara doesn't "need" to be replaced either, but most of us want it to be replaced by something better and cheaper.
The Panoz got left in the dust for two reasons. 1) The rules did not allow them to improve the car in a way that would make a difference, and 2) By the time the new tires came in and it lost the front end grip it needed, there weren't enough customers left to make it worth doing, even if the IRL would have let them.
The Dallara won, because it didn't need the tires as much to make grip, and as such, the changes that WERE allowed, were able to make up for the new tires.
The Dallara costs about the same to run as the Lola, it was said. That price hasn't changed. The DP01 cost 30% less to buy and the replacement parts cost 50% less.
The Dallara really DOES need to be changed, but the IRL didn't mandate the change, as specified in their rules, because they KNEW some teams couldn't afford to do it. Nobody wanted to admit that the lower half of the IRL grid was as bad off as that.
Spec is a bad word for every series when they have multiple chassis........ right up until they are struggling and the spec chassis is cheaper, then it is great........... (cough dp-01 cough).
Ah, but there is a big difference between the DP01 spec and the IRL spec.
The DP01 was designed to IMPROVE the racing and to reduce costs. I was a new car with better ideas was the goal.
The IRL has fallen into a spec series because of their own rules. They are just left with a single chassis by default. It still costs the same to maintain it, which is more than it was for the DP01, and the only savings you have is they don't need to buy a new chassis.
Good to see hypocrisy and double standards are still alive and well. "Spec" was a bad think when CART/CC fanboys wanted to unload a few rounds at the IRL. But now you have CC fanboys crying and wailing because they miss their beloved "SPEC" DP-01, and others trying to cast the CC spec as a positive thing.
CC "meant well" when they designed the DP-01, never mind that it didn't live up to the hype, just as long as they "meant well". OH Please, had the IRL announced a new "SPEC" car in 2006 (which would have been criticized by you fanboys) and promised half of the things CC hyped about the DP-01 and then failed to deliver on them, CC fanboys would have had a field day. And there would be no talk from you about "better ideas was the goal". Hypocrisy and double standards.
The CCWS looked at what they had, and decided a less costly car that would allow for more passing and less aero problems was a good idea. They hop[ed it would intice more teams into the series. They commissioned Panoz to build the car. It WAS cheaper to purchase and maintain. Did it make a big difference in the on track action ? I don't think it did as much as they HOPED it would, but, they only had it one year and were just getting the setups down. I think , if they had continued, we may have seen more action, as they learned what they could do. Would I have liked to see more than one chassis and one engine. Sure! The CCWS had become a spec series, whether I liked it or not. But, they WERE trying to improve things for the teams and the fans at the same time.
Nobody is crying and wailing. Except maybe the the IRL fans who can't stomach ANYTHING about CART or CC invading their IRL.
The IRL, on the other hand, did nothing, when is was time to look at new chassis, as per their own rules. They made NO effort to improve the on track product. They did nothing to lower the costs to the teams. They decided to do ... nothing, and in that way became a spec series by losing a chassis manufacturer and two engine brands. While this was going on, the IRL fans, on this board decried CC for being a SPEC series. Today, the IRL is a spec series, and the complaints about the situation are rarely , if EVER, heard. Why ? Because now the shoe is on the other foot, and they have no competition to complain about.
If any hypocrisy is around, it's on the IRL fans. So many things they hated over the years are all now part of the IRL. Do they hate them as much, now that they are part of THIER series ? It doesn't seem so.
The CCWS looked at what they had, and decided a less costly car that would allow for more passing and less aero problems was a good idea. They hop[ed it would intice more teams into the series. They commissioned Panoz to build the car. It WAS cheaper to purchase and maintain. Did it make a big difference in the on track action ? I don't think it did as much as they HOPED it would, but, they only had it one year and were just getting the setups down. I think , if they had continued, we may have seen more action, as they learned what they could do. Would I have liked to see more than one chassis and one engine. Sure! The CCWS had become a spec series, whether I liked it or not. But, they WERE trying to improve things for the teams and the fans at the same time.
Nobody is crying and wailing. Except maybe the the IRL fans who can't stomach ANYTHING about CART or CC invading their IRL.
The IRL, on the other hand, did nothing, when is was time to look at new chassis, as per their own rules. They made NO effort to improve the on track product. They did nothing to lower the costs to the teams. They decided to do ... nothing, and in that way became a spec series by losing a chassis manufacturer and two engine brands. While this was going on, the IRL fans, on this board decried CC for being a SPEC series. Today, the IRL is a spec series, and the complaints about the situation are rarely , if EVER, heard. Why ? Because now the shoe is on the other foot, and they have no competition to complain about.
If any hypocrisy is around, it's on the IRL fans. So many things they hated over the years are all now part of the IRL. Do they hate them as much, now that they are part of THIER series ? It doesn't seem so.
Well, John, I'm not one of them. Heck, I wish Champ Car would have been more like CART, I might have paid more attention to it. But my point is this. You and I had a conversation not too far back in which you expressed you annoyances at IRL fanboys who now accept may of the things they criticized CART/CC about simply because now they are in the IRL. (most notably the ride buyers) And again you've noted it here. Yet here you sit and do the same thing. You (and others) criticize the IRL for being a spec series (among other things) and then turn around and defend CC for being a spec series. When CART was very diverse you criticized the IRL for being ovals only. Yet you now defend CC even though it is a unilateral series, and the IRL has diversity. You are doing the same thing you find annoying about IRL fanboys. You love to point out the hypocrisies of IRL fanboys, but in turn fail to point out when CC fanboys do the exact same thing. That in itself is a double standard. It's ok for CC fanboys to make criticisms towards the IRL that they later defended but it isn't ok when the IRL fanboys do it?
Now, as for the CC spec. I totally agree that CC had some very valid and logical reasons for developing a spec car with little to no development work to keep costs down and to increase the competition level. Unfortunately it didn't quite work out as well as they had hoped. (The teams had to buy all new cars and parts which negated any cost saving benefits the DP-01 may have had. Those benefits would have likely showed up in a year or two. Competition was stronger than the year before, but NHL still cleaned house, and it didn't increase the car count.) And I totally understand that many CC fans have a strong desire to see may of the CC things implemented into the IRL. HOWEVER. Just because it may have made sense for CC to develop a spec car in 2006, doesn't mean that it still makes sense now. Its a different ball game. You have to do things based on the situations you face NOW, not what they were two years ago when both series were struggling to hang on. CC and the IRL have done things over the years to address situations they faced at the time, and just because CC or IRL fans may have like those things or they made sense at the time, doesn't mean they make sense to implement TODAY. Do things that make sense in TODAY's situation not yesterdays. Simply adding things that CC had to make some fanboys happy is the wrong way to do things. Just as you would think it would be wrong for the IRL to hang on to some of the things it has done for the same reasons.
I'll give you a great example. The qualifying format at Indy. The IRL went to the 11-11-11 format to increase the drama and to add bumping to each day because they had little excitement and almost no bumping. It made sense AT THE TIME to do this, and last year, it was pretty successful at doing just that. But a year later we've seen some criticism regarding it and that perhaps we don't need that format now that we have unification and there are more cars out on the grid. It made sense THEN, but it doesn't mean that it makes sense NOW.
And if someone thinks that somethings that CC did to address situations it had aren't the best thing to do, it doesn't mean they cant "stomach" having CART/CC things in the IRL.
Hmmm..BOTH series became defacto spec series by default. The manufacturers left, and one chassis proved superior to it's sole competition. It just took a couple of years longer for it to happen to the IRL.
Most people really want multiple manufactureres and chassis, not a spec series. But it's a moot point. You have to have conpanies that want in, and there aren't any (constant rumors to the contrary notwithstanding). Despite "unification", conditions both within and without the sport mean that that fact is not going to change anytime soon. IMHO
The IRL didn't get a new chassis because they were smart enough to realize that bringing in a new chassis would have done nothing but INCREASE the cost to the team owners. How much did it cost the CC teams to implement the DP-01 including cars, back-ups, spares, and any other new equipment the cars needed?
Maybe the racing in CC would have gotten substantially better, maybe it would have only been marginally better......... who knows. What I do know is that if no one is watching (both the IRL and CC) it doesn't make any sense to throw good money after bad and get a new car.
If 18 cars are spending 1m a piece wouldn't that money be better spent finding sponsors and promoting the series to some form of relevance? CC went the car route and the IRL went NO route........ Neither one did what they should have.
The IRL did nothing when they had all the marbles, Lets face they had all the engine manufacturers and several chassis manufacturers and they let that slip away for the most butt ugly and annoying chasis/engine combination that costs more to maintain than the Panoz DP01. I'd rather see a grid with 33 cars of different origins that the homogenized farce that the 500 has become. The cars cost twice as much to maintai the're slower and outdated and that was always the problem at Indy "tradition" always trumped technology. Yes CC had also turned into a spec series but it also seemed to more concerned with making racing more affordable for the teams and bettercompetition for the fans. The DP01 was a huge step in that direction, and a truly beautiful car
The move to the DP01 was risky, given the financial situation of some of it's teams, it was an EFFORT to improve the on going costs and fix the "parades" that some races were called. It was a proactive move. It was a costly one too. But it was an idea to make things better in the long run. Doing nothing would have improved nothing. I'm sure they could tell that SOMETHING had to change to get people more interested.
I recall, that Mario Andretti lamented that the the two sides didn't get together back , when the DP01 project was announced, and come up with cars that they BOTH would approve for their series. That way they would be one expensive step closer to being together. The IRL was scheduled, by their rules, to start a new chassis cycle. They declined to do anything. Were the teams in the IRL that badly off, back then ? I guess so.
