seriously, i'm gonna go on record and say i don't hate their ideas so far. it isn't what i'd have done but i'll never have that decision. the US is a totally different market from the rest of the world. we buy different, watch different and we don't know motorcycles as a whole. their plan, imo, looks like it could get closer racing... better racing. how many here are tired of suzuki run aways? how many said "YEAH!" when jordan spoke out about unobtanium a few years back?
it won't be the same as wsb but i really don't care. if i want wsb i have wsb. besides, when was the last time an american went to race wsb? colin? bostrom? been years. doesn't seem having the same classes promotes much crossover to me.
a spec tired, equal hp'd 600 "superbike" class with the top riders and plenty of great privateers sounds like good racing to me. sounds like somewhere the best rider will win and you'd be surprised who's the best on a given day.
everybody wants better but is afraid of change. kinda catch 22 don't ya think? free yo minds, people.
i don't know that it will work but i think it has a good chance.
i also bet that many here will enjoy it when they finally see it.
ok, go ahead and hate me now
There is a hell of a lot more to a 'superbike' than horsepower. There is tractable torque and high-dollar suspension componentry, and when comparing privateers to factory riders there is more track time and more (and generally better) hands on the bikes for the teams. The factories will hire the best riders, especially if they need 4 riders per factory. Privateers will be no more competitive than they are now.
600s as the premier class will have us the laughing stock of the world, and DMG is pretty clear that they want 1000s off the track in the near future. They talk about bringing back hell-holes like Loudon and their answer is slower bikes to do it - bikes which corner faster, so the lack of run-off room won't be increased by slower straightaway speeds. We get rolling starts and pace cars...
You see this as good? Where is the good part? Unless you like MotoST that is -if you do you'll be in heaven, but it will be a lonely heaven because most will view that race as time to leave the track.
It's a joke, but a bad joke. It is quite possible to want change but not like the offered change - because we want change for the better. 'Better' is a key word there.
It doesn't matter how good the racing is. DMG thinks it knows what the general public will watch and couldn't care less about anything else. If they did they would have at least tried to work with the factories. And just wait, they are going to use the crashes with the Hayden brothers as proof that the new classes are needed. Somehow DMG's 600's are going to be safer than the 600's they were riding.
I'm sure Zoot that the proposed new rules will appeal to some but I can't help but think that the majority of race fans will hate them. I am certain that I hate them. HP restricted classes, Moto ST, rolling starts, pace cars...none of this works for me. I read an article somwhere that at least a couple of the people involved with the DMG proposal have been involved with the Canadian Superbike series. No offense to that series BUT is it known world wide for it's close racing? Is it acknowledged as a premier series that frequently puts riders in WSB or MotoGP? I don't think so in either case and I don't think these ideas will work in the US. Everybody agrees that some change is needed in the AMA series but I think it needs "tuning" and not a complete overhaul. I will give the on track activities a chance but I don't think it looks good at this point and if someone comes in with a rival series that the OEM's will back, that will be the series that grows.
I'm not a huge fan of the dumbing down of the sport. There is a bit of pride in knowing what goes on and how things work. Call me selfish, but I like that not anyone can jump in and understand everything that's going on. It's going to Nascar on 2 wheels if DMG gets its way.
So what exactly is DMG going to do when one specific rider starts dominating the class on their proposed rules?
Add weight on by eating some McDonalds, intake plates or pace car?
I'm sure someone will dominate. The SS class is nearly stock and 3 riders blew the field yesterday and it is clear the Graves bikes are dominating for now.
If their idea is to keep the pack together by throwing a debris flag every now and then we should be able to enjoy the melee at turn 1 after every restart.
No, they will come up with some other scheme. Just look back a couple years ago in Nascar when Kenseth had a huge lead early in the season and he just protected his points lead at the end. They didn't like that because it was anti-climatic so they create the chase with the last 10 races. It's not just about parity from race to race, they will want parity all season long so you don't have one team or one rider win the series early and just coast at the end.
I agree with the assessment about someone eventually dominating, you can see it in AMA, WSBK, MotoGP, etc... it comes down to a rider, bike and team gelling and getting their set up right for each race. The issue I have is trying to engineer the rules to such a degree that it becomes like WWE where it has no basis in reality and truly becomes entertainment and racing in the losest of terms, where it is all about the sizzle and not the steak.
I'm not a huge fan of the dumbing down of the sport. There is a bit of pride in knowing what goes on and how things work. Call me selfish, but I like that not anyone can jump in and understand everything that's going on. It's going to Nascar on 2 wheels if DMG gets its way.
Not only that but I like the idea that any development the teams are doing is going to make it into the product on the showroom floor. Would we have TC on the new 1098R if it weren't for racing, would we have a fuel map/HP selector on the current GSXR's if it weren't for racing? I don't think so.
In the DMG proposal all this development would be left up to team owners (just like Nascar) instead of the factories. Since the stock bikes from Japan already outperform your typical Buell or R series BMW there won't be much development needed for the Japanese bikes. This could lead to less aftermarket parts selection since there isn't a need to develop the additional ponies or the rules won't allow different susupension upgrades or you aren't allowed to change the rearsets, who knows what the unintended consequences might be?
Look at what DMG is doing, they are dumbing down the rules to allow Buell/HD to race with a motor that was designed some 20-30 years ago??? Same thing with the R series BMW, they used the same basic engine on their bikes back in WW 2. I know their have been alot of evolutionary changes on these powerplants over the years, heck about 2 years ago HD developed rubber mounts for their sportster line!!!! This is exactly what I fear with this change, we somehow get technology that is generations behind the rest of the world because companies have no incentive to develop it and no incentive to market it here.
Lucky there will be other race series to keep developement going. Some people still like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches & tartar sauce. I hope it doesn't make me an elitist to say I've moved on. NASCAR, Flattrack, Country Music and now Daytona Superbikes are something I can do without. WSB and MotoGP are not.
seriously, i'm gonna go on record and say i don't hate their ideas so far. it isn't what i'd have done but i'll never have that decision. the US is a totally different market from the rest of the world. we buy different, watch different and we don't know motorcycles as a whole. their plan, imo, looks like it could get closer racing... better racing. how many here are tired of suzuki run aways? how many said "YEAH!" when jordan spoke out about unobtanium a few years back?
it won't be the same as wsb but i really don't care. if i want wsb i have wsb. besides, when was the last time an american went to race wsb? colin? bostrom? been years. doesn't seem having the same classes promotes much crossover to me.
a spec tired, equal hp'd 600 "superbike" class with the top riders and plenty of great privateers sounds like good racing to me. sounds like somewhere the best rider will win and you'd be surprised who's the best on a given day.
everybody wants better but is afraid of change. kinda catch 22 don't ya think? free yo minds, people.
i don't know that it will work but i think it has a good chance.
i also bet that many here will enjoy it when they finally see it.
ok, go ahead and hate me now
There is a hell of a lot more to a 'superbike' than horsepower. There is tractable torque and high-dollar suspension componentry, and when comparing privateers to factory riders there is more track time and more (and generally better) hands on the bikes for the teams. The factories will hire the best riders, especially if they need 4 riders per factory. Privateers will be no more competitive than they are now.
600s as the premier class will have us the laughing stock of the world, and DMG is pretty clear that they want 1000s off the track in the near future. They talk about bringing back hell-holes like Loudon and their answer is slower bikes to do it - bikes which corner faster, so the lack of run-off room won't be increased by slower straightaway speeds. We get rolling starts and pace cars...
You see this as good? Where is the good part? Unless you like MotoST that is -if you do you'll be in heaven, but it will be a lonely heaven because most will view that race as time to leave the track.
It's a joke, but a bad joke. It is quite possible to want change but not like the offered change - because we want change for the better. 'Better' is a key word there.
i know there's more to sbk than that. that's why it won't be a train. there will still be better bikes. just a bit less variance. you say there's a difference b/w factory and privateers, tell me what roberts was when he went to gp in the 70s? a deserving privateer will show with rules that allow for parity of power. johnny rock page won't. (sorry johnny).
i believe the 4 required teams was for literbike, wasn't it? regardless, if it's 600sbk, that's 16 factory riders if only the big 4 show. lot more than now on "equal" equip.
i only know what i've read so far. i don't know all the rules and it doesn't sound as tho they do either yet. reopening louden is speculation based on a pointed comment by an interviewer. i know they have a member that knows better than you what kind of corner speeds 600s are capable of and he knows rider safety and loss.
i don't know french or any of the other folk but i do know sifan. he's a racer and has been for years. he manages racers. i'm not 100% certain but i think he manages a national champion and a past world champion that currently works for suzuki. his wife is argueably the most important person in the largest club racing org in the US. a club that quit racing a course until a dangerous section that resulted in one lost life and several severe injuries over the years was fixed. the club reworked the dangerous section with their own time, money and people. They are not NASCAR, they are roadracers. i trust he isn't looking to NASCAR your sport. now he's obviously not all their money so we'll see but DMG does have at least one person who i'd say is on our side.
you say laughing stock? really? we aren't already? who cares what the world thinks if we get good racing where the best racers win?
moto-st would be a great venue if they'd get rid of the rolling starts and, more importantly, the pace car.
But my thing is that DMG is going to take a class that's proven to be one of the less popular classes (Formula Extremely-boring) and make that the 'premier' class. Then doing away with the SS classes. I do agree there was no need for the 1000cc SuperStock class. That one doesn't bother me. And I wouldn't mind 600 SS staying (or even Boremula Extreme staying) if they kept the factories out and used them as a stepping stone to the premier class. If the classes were structured to help grow and mature riders, they might stay in the US longer as it would give them a progression from privateer to pro (if they had the talent). As the current class structure stands, it's like they've given each of the "Big 4" their own class to win. If the factories had to focus on one class, rather than poaching in the support classes like they do now, we'd have closer racing. But as it stands today, if the factories want a #1 plate to crow about, why go against Mladin/Spies and the Yosh machine. Rather than put forth the effort, they can race in another class and take a #1 plate there instead. And that for far less money and effort. So where's the incentive for the factories to go all out for the SBK title when they can just as easily drop down and take a #1 plate racing against a bunch of privateers. But their ad department can crow that they're a championship winning team.
you say there's a difference b/w factory and privateers, tell me what roberts was when he went to gp in the 70s? a deserving privateer will show with rules that allow for parity of power.
In an era that was very different from today,and with 100% backing of tire company that provided tires only to him. His bike was equal to the 'works' Yamahas of the era, but not the Suzukis.
i believe the 4 required teams was for literbike, wasn't it? regardless, if it's 600sbk, that's 16 factory riders if only the big 4 show. lot more than now on "equal" equip.
I thought 4 bikes per team was mentioned before they even added the 'Literbike' class, I could be mistaken.
i don't know french or any of the other folk but i do know sifan. he's a racer and has been for years. he manages racers. i'm not 100% certain but i think he manages a national champion and a past world champion that currently works for suzuki. his wife is argueably the most important person in the largest club racing org in the US. a club that quit racing a course until a dangerous section that resulted in one lost life and several severe injuries over the years was fixed. the club reworked the dangerous section with their own time, money and people. They are not NASCAR, they are roadracers.
Managing a racer doesn't mean much to me - it means he's a good paper pusher. But explain to me about the rolling starts! Which of those agrees with Edmondson that this is a good idea? That alone tells me non-motorcyclists are involved, and reeks of NASCAR.
you say laughing stock? really? we aren't already? who cares what the world thinks if we get good racing where the best racers win?
I care. Yeah, we're the laughing stock now. I thought new management might improve that, but apparently at least one person feels, 'we suck now, let's keep on sucking!!'. I'd like to see the US system continue to feed riders to SBK and GP, but this system seems designed to avoid that (at least in my eyes).
moto-st would be a great venue if they'd get rid of the rolling starts and, more importantly, the pace car.
Moto ST is a great participant class, but spectators are generally not interested in endurance motorcycle racing. I've been to endurance races, and even as a very interested spectator it's hard to maintain interest after an hour and nearly impossible to know the order of the bikes (especially with all the classes involved). This is Edmondson's baby, that's about it.
I'm just expressing my opinions - hey, I've been wrong before, I'm not going to tell you I'm always right. It really appears to me that those with the power in this series are trying to turn it into something it doesn't need to be. I have trouble just getting past the rolling starts, and would love a simple explanation of why that is even needed. While AMA has been dull lately at least there is some excitement at the start - but hey, let's do away with that!
you say there's a difference b/w factory and privateers, tell me what roberts was when he went to gp in the 70s? a deserving privateer will show with rules that allow for parity of power.
In an era that was very different from today,and with 100% backing of tire company that provided tires only to him. His bike was equal to the 'works' Yamahas of the era, but not the Suzukis.
WTF?? Roberts was full factory Yamaha when he went to Europe in the 70's. Any moron would know that.
you say there's a difference b/w factory and privateers, tell me what roberts was when he went to gp in the 70s? a deserving privateer will show with rules that allow for parity of power.
In an era that was very different from today,and with 100% backing of tire company that provided tires only to him. His bike was equal to the 'works' Yamahas of the era, but not the Suzukis.
WTF?? Roberts was full factory Yamaha when he went to Europe in the 70's. Any moron would know that.
uuuuummmmmmmm... no, he was not when he first went... his first year was just supposed to be a learning year and was treated as such by the factory and also by Goodyear... it was not until mid-season when he was leading the championship that they really started giving him everything they could...
you say there's a difference b/w factory and privateers, tell me what roberts was when he went to gp in the 70s? a deserving privateer will show with rules that allow for parity of power.
In an era that was very different from today,and with 100% backing of tire company that provided tires only to him. His bike was equal to the 'works' Yamahas of the era, but not the Suzukis.
WTF?? Roberts was full factory Yamaha when he went to Europe in the 70's. Any moron would know that.
Apparently not every moron does - Roberts had the backing of American Yamaha in '78 when he went to Europe, but was not a 'factory' rider. Keep in mind, that was a totally different world - teams were often backed by their national importer, etc, (like Heron with Sheene) and the bikes weren't like they are today. You had a 'tuner', Carruthers for Roberts, who were actually making internal changes, porting, etc - try that today and you'll be killed.
His '78 team was fairly small, and he ran 250, 500 and F750 until they realized he might dominate on the 500.
edit: I had to un-ignore to read what the 'prove it' bit was, which is a pretty stupid statement. Prove he was.
