jpetry - 14 April 2008 07:33 PM

TURBO DIESELS I think would be a possible option.

The Sachs/McDonald crash in 1964 put an end to petroleum based fuels at the Indy 500.

ChrisR - 14 April 2008 10:09 PM

Good thread and good ideas.



Cost has to be a paramount in coming up with the correct configureation(s).

Think Dale Coyne and giving him a leavel playing field.

The V10 racing engine just will not happen, I'm afraid.

Also, having a HP limit personally I feel is counterproductive. You end up having a 5.7 liter V8 with 650 HP and 600Lbs of torque up against a 4 cylinder that is all top end and 1/2 the torque of the V8.

Reolutions per minute: The higher you go = $$$

No doubt the biggest risk in coming up with a formula is ensuring that there is no loophole for another Penske Panzer Mercedes, although it was one heck of a car! If there's a hole, they'll find it.


Would everyone be on the same page in saying if a factory enters the series thay would have to agree to supply a % of the field?

Currently Honda has the entire field. If Ford wanted in, they would have to agree to supply 1/2 the field. Dodge want's to enter and it drops for everyone to 1/3. Porsche comes in and everyone is down to 1/4. So on and so forth. with 26 -28 cars in the fields that may just look pretty good to a manufacturer if they can get in with engines in 6 or 7 cars.

What would happen is manufacturers would encourage other manufacturers to join because it would both help build up the series as well as decreasing their investment, which means they have a higher return.

In F1 the manufacturers only have to supply (2) cars. Or more for their customers. Think that costs and return on investment are lower? You add other suppliers and suddenly you create an engine war. Who can spend the most on development? Costs escalate. Why do you think no one wants to compete with Honda? Indy car racing is such a small blip on the screen that it isn't economically justifiable.

It's 2008. Fuel cells have come a long way since 64. The only fires in F1 are in the pits.

Turbo diesels would be an interesting option to run in addition to ethanol or the more traditional methanol (also a renewable source)Run an equivelancy formula and open the field again, use N/A,turbos, diesels, and stock blocks. Bring back the variety and ingenuity that made AOW great. And PLEASE attract as many manufacturers, both
engine and chassis, as possble

The Sachs/McDonald crash in 1964 put an end to petroleum based fuels at the Indy 500.

Diesel doesn't burn like that. It has to have super high pressure and high temps to ignite in the engine.

BigBend - 15 April 2008 12:28 AM

The Sachs/McDonald crash in 1964 put an end to petroleum based fuels at the Indy 500.

First off, diesel doesn't burn like gasoline does. It requires a lot of pressure to ignite or a huge heat source.

Second, one of those cars (not sure which), had pannier fuel tanks. Driver lost it and went into the inside wall hard, which caused the tanks to ignite on impact. He slid back into traffic and collected several more cars. All of those had straight fuel tanks, not the rubber bag fuel cells we have now. You could run racing gasoline quite safely in Indycars now because the technology of fuel cells has advanced to a level that was probably thought impossible in 1964.

jpetry - 14 April 2008 07:33 PM

TURBO DIESELS I think would be a possible option. Higher torque for street and road racing. Domestic and foreign manufacturers. I think it would increase the exposure of the series and I think Engine makers like BMW AUDI AMG VW Would do a great job of marketing there product through ICS. Domestic companies like Cummins or Detroit Diesel might also get involved.

A turbo diesel option would be a great addition to the series! I'd love to see three options: 1) NA ethanol, 2) SC/TC ethanol, 3) TC diesel. The displacements of course would have to be different for the three different powerplants, but it would really open up the options for engine manufacturers. It would also be cool to see a Mazda rotory in the series.

BigBend - 13 April 2008 12:45 PM

The 3.0 liter NA V-10 used in Formula 1 a few years ago.

With minor modifications it could be adapted for use in ICS easily.

It was manufactured by Honda and Cosworth. In Cosworth's case it could be easily badged by Chevrolet, Ford or Mazda.

Employing such a powerplant would open up a number of other manufacturers for participation in the series who have produced this engine in the past. Those manufacturers include, Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Ferrari/Fiat and Renault. Chrysler also has familiarity with the V-10 as it produces an 8.3 liter version of the engine used in the Viper.

The 3 liter NA V-10 is a very attractive option from a manufacturer participation perspective.

When there were discussions about customer V10 engines in F1 a few years ago, Cosworth was the lowest cost option that I can recall: $10-$12 million per season, including full engineering support. I believe Mercedes, Renault and BMW were in the $15 million+ range. I don't remember what the Ferrari was pegged at. I read a recent article that put (just) the manufacturing cost of a Renault 2.4 V8 at $400K/engine. Outside of a full manufacturer subsidy, there isn't an IRL team in existence that could support such a budget.

The current F1 engines share little in common with passenger car engines, or even IRL race engines. For one thing, F1 engines employ pneumatic valve trains, as they have for quite a few years. And even with the recent drive to restrict development, they are not "long life" units. AFAIK, CART and IRL engines have always used conventional valve trains. Given the current environment in AOWR, I can't think of a single car company that would pour this kind of money into exotic engines in the IRL, when they won't put money in for standard racing engines now.

My guess is the IRL will go for small displacement V8's or maybe turbo 4's. There will have to be some sort of balance between what can be marketed and what already struggling teams can afford.

As long as Ethanol is a big sponser of IndyCar you can forget about Diesel.

I am one of the few that believes the motors should be badged and the builder should be able to supply 75% of the field with motors. NASCAR and their motor "badgers" do a ton of cross-promotion, why can't IndyCar ask for the same?

If they're going to bring back turbos, I think a 2 liter inline 6 would be appropriate.

Diesels (espeically running biodiesel or vegetable oil) would certainly be interesting.

mustang6172 - 28 April 2008 01:19 AM

If they're going to bring back turbos, I think a 2 liter inline 6 would be appropriate.

Diesels (espeically running biodiesel or vegetable oil) would certainly be interesting.

Let's get Willie to sign on the dotted line!!!




(On another Diesel note: If Diesel fuel is mixed with a flamable fluid, such as ethanol, methanol, or gasoline, the results in a fire situation is the same as if it were any other fuel fire. This could happen in an accident with a car that is powered by something other flamable fuel)