rickoblue - 16 March 2008 09:33 AM

Sure, I agree with that Juice. :coolgrin:

Though of course, the lack of TC and such may have made the one-stop strategy that Massa did last season here easier on tyres than this season but it's really here no there, drivers, top and not so top alike, world champions and non world champions go off on occassion and have bad races.

Hondanisti - 16 March 2008 02:46 AM

do me a favor and google the term "human factors design" and catch up to the 21st century. you're what we call the swiss cheese slice adder.

LOL, and you're what I call a "pompous ass". The fact that several drivers have claimed they didn't see the light doesn't necessarily mean the placement of the light is flawed. It could, in fact, have more to do with individual differences among drivers' focus, concentration, reaction to stress, etc.. It seems more likely that Rubinho didn't look at the light because he was preoccupied by the fact he'd just left his pit with the fuel hose attached and had nearly ran over one of his crew (not his fault BTW).

Allrace - 16 March 2008 02:36 AM

I want to live in your reality.

The drivers know where the light is. It's their job to look at it. Just because someone else gets a ticket for running a red light doesn't mean it's not your fault when you do it. When I'm driving my car, I look at the stoplights. If they're red, I stop. I don't run them and then say to the cop, "I couldn't see it, perhaps you should move it for me."

As for DC, LMFAO! If you see a car alongside you and turn into the apex anyway, you get what you deserve. Massa was plenty enough alongside to warrant being given racing room. ColdTar chose not to give him any. He easily could've given him 1/2 car width of road and forced Massa to drive over the curb and scrub a bunch of speed. Instead he turned right into the apex. It doesn't even matter who has the right to what or what that spud Brundle says, Massa's car was there and two cars can't occupy the same bit of road at the same time. Either he knew Massa was there and turned in anyway or he couldn't see him and he should retire or at the very least get some bifocals.

I don't think Massa had the best judgment trying a pass there but the unavoidable part happened when DC closed the door. He did not have to close it. He closed it and physics took place.

Allrace - 16 March 2008 01:07 PM

It seems more likely that Rubinho didn't look at the light because he was preoccupied by the fact he'd just left his pit with the fuel hose attached and had nearly ran over one of his crew (not his fault BTW).

so one cannot design in a better location spot to overcome multi-tasking "in your world" ?

there's several contingencies here that fell through the cracks - the team pit wall reminding Rubens to stop - same as Massa and Fisi at
Montreal 2007.

But from a safety point of view, it would be more problematic if drivers continued to be "distracted" for various reasons under
chaotic conditions and not seeing the red light at pit exit and coming onto traffic when they shouldn't. It has happened 3 times already in the span of less than a year. It'd make more sense to design in a better location to ensure that drivers despite being distracted will be triggered to stop by seeing the stoplight. It's a simple fix. Denying that it exists and staying the course isn't the smartest intervention and neither is blaming the driver even though he's culpable. In the end, what do you want ? People to stop when they should or the problem to continue without resolution and blaming people ? Which one fixes the problem ?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59689

Jean Todt:

"You have a red light, if you don't stop in front of the red light you get excluded, so that's it and we have to analyse very carefully the situation.

But you know, honestly, it's not a question (of seeing the light) because it's in the rules, so if you have a procedure where you 'say be careful, you will have the red light', you don't have to see it. " . We didn't say (that) to him and he did not pay attention."

Todt suggesting that they didn't have a process in place to warn the driver at the time but after the incident, they included it on
their "things to do" checklist process for future safety car period pitting scenarios. It's one way to design in a fix. But not all teams
will have that process in place and so it'd be wiser for the solution to come from the FIA in order for it to be universal.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59764

Felipe Massa :


"It was a mistake from the driver because I didn't watch the light.

It was a mistake from the team because they didn't tell me to watch the light - and for sure it will never happen again because we have put it on our checklist.

But I think it was maybe also something wrong with the procedure. The rules say you need to wait until the last car passes the line, but I go out of the box and I am the last car.

And the light was red. That is why for me also maybe the guy who works the light was not quick enough....
There are so many circumstances around that happened that if the rules are like that, we made a mistake, but someone was not quick enough to put the light at the right moment."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59650

Pat Symonds, Executive Director of Engineering:

Giancarlo's first instinct is to race, and his concentration at the pit exit was on racing Kubica; under those circumstances, it is easy to miss the light.

Allrace - 16 March 2008 02:36 AM

I want to live in your reality.

The drivers know where the light is. It's their job to look at it. Just because someone else gets a ticket for running a red light doesn't mean it's not your fault when you do it. When I'm driving my car, I look at the stoplights. If they're red, I stop. I don't run them and then say to the cop, "I couldn't see it, perhaps you should move it for me."

as for me being a pompous ass, I'm not the one who fired off the first derogatory comment as we see above. Somehow your world is superior, right ?

Hondanisti - 16 March 2008 02:35 PM

so one cannot design in a better location spot to overcome multi-tasking "in your world" ?

there's several contingencies here that fell through the cracks - the team pit wall reminding Rubens to stop - same as Massa and Fisi at
Montreal 2007.

But from a safety point of view, it would be more problematic if drivers continued to be "distracted" for various reasons under
chaotic conditions and not seeing the red light at pit exit and coming onto traffic when they shouldn't. It has happened 3 times already in the span of less than a year. It'd make more sense to design in a better location to ensure that drivers despite being distracted will be triggered to stop by seeing the stoplight. It's a simple fix. Denying that it exists and staying the course isn't the smartest intervention and neither is blaming the driver even though he's culpable. In the end, what do you want ? People to stop when they should or the problem to continuing and blaming people ? Which one fixes the problem ?

as for me being a pompous ass, I'm not the one who fired off the first derogatory comment as we see above. Somehow your world is superior, right ?

Nope, but in my world people are responsible for their actions. I'm all for moving the light, then when drivers continue to "not see it" you can blame the human factors engineer. The fact that I don't agree with you as to the cause of the problem does not mean I don't recognize the problem.

In all your carefully researched quotes above, not one of them indicated the location of the light was an issue. In fact they seem to support my supposition that it's an issue with the drivers and/or teams. Nobody does it twice.