wilmywood8455 - 24 March 2008 08:11 PM

hobbymanbill - 24 March 2008 06:59 PM

I don't have any facts to support this, it's completely anecdotal, but NASCAR tire troubles are almost always at HIGH banked tracks. I don't ever remember tire problems at the flat ovals, and certainly not at the road courses.

If we just accept that for the moment, the problem occurs PRIMARILY on the right front. All the formulas for down-force and so on MAY indicate that F1 and CUP cars put the same or at least similar loads on the tires. The fact is though that the load on the right front on a cup car isn't duplicated at any F1 track. Even if the peak load is matched, the duration as mentioned earlier in this thread is not. F1 drivers have long complained about NOT being able to keep enough heat in the tires. NASCAR usually has the opposite problem. So you have a tire that is under almost constant high g lateral load and high heat stress. It also contains quit a bit less gas than a F1 tire.
Nascar 12w x 28h x 15 rim
F1 14-15w x 28h x 15 rim
also because they are both radials the larger sidewall of the NASCAR tire has more flex which also builds heat and adds stress to the carcass. I'm not sure, but I believe the wheel of a F1 car is wider than the tread of the tire. Taking all that into account, Goodyear has a much more difficult job then B F Goodrich. AA JMHO

Bill

1) Nascar has had RF troubles at Indianapolis for a number of years due to too much negative camber...............it's flat,more or less;
2) if they both have 28" tall tires and 15" wheels, as you state, they have the same amount of sidewall;
3) personally, I think the big difference is the companies making the tires. IMHO, in car and truck tires, Goodyear is the least tire for the dollar you can buy, and Bridgestone is just the opposite. Goodyear gets near Michelin prices for junk; Bridgestone makes near Michelin quality tires for much, much less.

I should have clarified some. The F1 tire runs a rim that is 2 inches (approx) wider than the tire tread. Nascar runs a rim that is the same as the tread. The difference in sidewall stiffness is very large. It is one of the reasons so much more gas can be run in the tire and still have lower pressure. I see no sense in debating the relative merits of one brand versus another because it's no different than Chevy VS Ford, etc. The fact is There have been no right front issues at IRL that I am aware of other than the teams running MORE RF camber than Goodyear Engineers told them was SAFE. If you ignore advice from the people that build something, you do so at your own risk. The only cars that had the problem ignored the advice, how is that Goodyear's problem? Are you going to blame the contractor that builds a floor in a building calling for a gross loading of 100LBS per SQ FT and you put 200LBS per SQ FT on it and it collapses? AA JMHO

Bill

They all push the envelope as far as they feel they can, sometimes a little too much.
One thing i don't understand is since the COT don't generate downforce like the previous car, then in theory, the tire could be softer. Also, I'd like to see Nascar try and develop a better way of cooling the tires to help remedy the overheating problem. One thing that really baffles me was Goodyears' waste of teams' time by testing a tire and coming up with what they (the drivers) felt was a good tire, then bringing a completely different tire to the race. Everything they learned was useless on raceday.

pkdjr8 - 27 March 2008 08:03 PM

They all push the envelope as far as they feel they can, sometimes a little too much.
One thing i don't understand is since the COT don't generate downforce like the previous car, then in theory, the tire could be softer. Also, I'd like to see Nascar try and develop a better way of cooling the tires to help remedy the overheating problem. One thing that really baffles me was Goodyears' waste of teams' time by testing a tire and coming up with what they (the drivers) felt was a good tire, then bringing a completely different tire to the race. Everything they learned was useless on raceday.

Conditions the day of the race would have had the tire giving up in about 25 laps. Chances are some of the teams would have been pushing the envelope and wound up trying to knock down the walls. NASCAR mandated to goodyear that the tire, under the conditions that they were going to have that week, MUST BE ABLE TO MAKE 70 LAPS which was the maximum fuel window. As has been said many times, Goodyear erred on the cautious side. Once the teams get to make some adjustments on the aero package, this MAY all go away. I certainly hope so. NASCAR has to do something to make the car a little more balanced front to rear. They either need to fix the nose or the suspension or both, but as long as the car is this loose, Goodyear is going to have to keep supplying HARD TIRES. AA JMHO

Bill

Since Goodyear left F1 as a tire supplier they have seriously cut back on the tire development in all forms of racing. Throw in that a number to the development engineers are apporaching retirement age and don't intend to start something that they won't see finishd and you have a mess. The mess that NASCAR has signed up for with Goodyear a their sole supplier.

The SCCA member magazine Sports Car had a recent issue with a Tire Buyers Guide, for club racing and autocrossing....both street type tires and full out racing slicks. No where in the article was a Goodyear tire shown. Hoosier, Kuhmo, Bridgestone and most all the other tire suppliers had some of their wares shown....NO GOODYEAR. Very telling.

mmi16 - 28 March 2008 07:45 PM

Since Goodyear left F1 as a tire supplier they have seriously cut back on the tire development in all forms of racing. Throw in that a number to the development engineers are apporaching retirement age and don't intend to start something that they won't see finishd and you have a mess. The mess that NASCAR has signed up for with Goodyear a their sole supplier.

The SCCA member magazine Sports Car had a recent issue with a Tire Buyers Guide, for club racing and autocrossing....both street type tires and full out racing slicks. No where in the article was a Goodyear tire shown. Hoosier, Kuhmo, Bridgestone and most all the other tire suppliers had some of their wares shown....NO GOODYEAR. Very telling.

I could gather that Goodyear did not deal under the table like the others did.

NoviVespa3 - 28 March 2008 08:33 PM

mmi16 - 28 March 2008 07:45 PM

Since Goodyear left F1 as a tire supplier they have seriously cut back on the tire development in all forms of racing. Throw in that a number to the development engineers are apporaching retirement age and don't intend to start something that they won't see finishd and you have a mess. The mess that NASCAR has signed up for with Goodyear a their sole supplier.

The SCCA member magazine Sports Car had a recent issue with a Tire Buyers Guide, for club racing and autocrossing....both street type tires and full out racing slicks. No where in the article was a Goodyear tire shown. Hoosier, Kuhmo, Bridgestone and most all the other tire suppliers had some of their wares shown....NO GOODYEAR. Very telling.

I could gather that Goodyear did not deal under the table like the others did.

I am not seeing Goodyear on cars that previously have run Goodyears in the past.

Again, money?

Fahrenheit - 11 March 2008 01:21 PM

Now I'm no engineer, but I'd like to ask some of you here on the boards some questions.

This is concerning Tires. More specifically Goodyear. (Mods please let this go, I don't think it has anything to do about the Tony Stewart fiasco at Atlanta)

I am a fan of both Formula 1 and Nascar, and when I say a fan I mean I watch every race (well, as much Nascar as I can, but EVERY F1 race). One thing that I can not help but notice is the obscene amount of tire failures that occur in Nascar. I don't really think that obscene is too strong a word here either.

I have no stats to back up my claim, I wish I did, so if any of you out there can find some I'd be interested in seeing what they are. What I'm looking for is a sort of crash database where racing accidents are recorded and the cause is recorded as well. My theory is that accidents caused by tire failure will be extremely higher in the Nascar series (all of them) because of the poor tires that are supplied to the teams. I'm by no means only interested in F1 and Nascar. If this mythical database I'm looking for does exist and have other series in it so be it.

My point is this. How much stress is a Formula 1 tire put through? How much stress is a Nascar tire put through? I'm no rocket scientist here, but I have got to believe that the F1 tire is put through a hell of alot more stress and cornering G's than your typical Nascar tire, yet they rarely seem to fail. Look at the abuse that Lewis Hamilton put his Bridgestones through at China last year, yet the tire did not fail. Now take a look at the Goodyears that are supplied to Nascar. At least one car per race, many times more, is taken out of contention early through no fault of their own because of a blown tire.

If Bridgestone can build a good tire, why the can't Goodyear?

PS One thing to remember. There is no such thing as a COT. There is no Car of Tomorrow anymore.

Goodyear can and does build a good tire. It is the COT and the NASCAR car teams that is giving the tire a bad rap.
When you have a car design that in order to make it faster you eliminate it's suspension travel to the point that there is no suspension, you create a couple of elements that ANY TIRE MAKER is going to have a problem with.
ALL of the Chassis weight and g force is put Directly into the tire, when the suspension is no longer a part of the car AND the suspension is bottomed out, which means maximum camber in the tire, If you started with 3 degrees you may now have 5 degrees, that tire is now put through an enviroment it was never designed for ...... no wonder more tires haven't blown up.....
There isn't a worse enviroment that you can put a tire through than on the RF of a car on a 30 degree banking, in 3400 Lb vehicle traveling at 190 mph, especially with 0 suspension travel, something is going to break. The rubber bands (tires) normally break before the metal parts do.....

mmi16 - 28 March 2008 07:45 PM

Since Goodyear left F1 as a tire supplier they have seriously cut back on the tire development in all forms of racing. Throw in that a number to the development engineers are apporaching retirement age and don't intend to start something that they won't see finishd and you have a mess. The mess that NASCAR has signed up for with Goodyear a their sole supplier.

The SCCA member magazine Sports Car had a recent issue with a Tire Buyers Guide, for club racing and autocrossing....both street type tires and full out racing slicks. No where in the article was a Goodyear tire shown. Hoosier, Kuhmo, Bridgestone and most all the other tire suppliers had some of their wares shown....NO GOODYEAR. Very telling.

This is the heart of the issue. Goodyear is still bringing ONE TIRE for both the nationwide cars and the COT cars at many of the tracks. In years past, it wasn't as big a deal. Goodyear needs to spend money and develop a separate tire for each car. I think NASCAR needs seriously look for another supplier when Goodyear's contract is up. Goodyear just cannot compete anymore.

On a side note, I think they should bring three tires of varying softness to the tracks. Then each driver could make a choice as to which one to run for the race. This would lead to varying pit stratagies(God forbid green flag stops!) and put some excitement back into the races. OK, I'm off the soapbox.

Jon

reldusj - 01 April 2008 08:27 PM

mmi16 - 28 March 2008 07:45 PM

Since Goodyear left F1 as a tire supplier they have seriously cut back on the tire development in all forms of racing. Throw in that a number to the development engineers are apporaching retirement age and don't intend to start something that they won't see finishd and you have a mess. The mess that NASCAR has signed up for with Goodyear a their sole supplier.

The SCCA member magazine Sports Car had a recent issue with a Tire Buyers Guide, for club racing and autocrossing....both street type tires and full out racing slicks. No where in the article was a Goodyear tire shown. Hoosier, Kuhmo, Bridgestone and most all the other tire suppliers had some of their wares shown....NO GOODYEAR. Very telling.

This is the heart of the issue. Goodyear is still bringing ONE TIRE for both the nationwide cars and the COT cars at many of the tracks. In years past, it wasn't as big a deal. Goodyear needs to spend money and develop a separate tire for each car. I think NASCAR needs seriously look for another supplier when Goodyear's contract is up. Goodyear just cannot compete anymore.

On a side note, I think they should bring three tires of varying softness to the tracks. Then each driver could make a choice as to which one to run for the race. This would lead to varying pit stratagies(God forbid green flag stops!) and put some excitement back into the races. OK, I'm off the soapbox.

Jon

Tire companies get involved in racing for two reasons. One is to make a name for the company. The other is to make money selling racing tires. There is no in between reason.

When you are the only tire in a series, why on earth would you need to design so many different variations into your product if you are the only one? If the reason is to make money. Otherwise it is to show the world how good you are and what you know or don't, depending on the case.