stowaway - 12 March 2008 12:32 PM

NoviVespa3 - 11 March 2008 11:20 PM

There is also the question of one of the worst enemies of tires, heat. In F1 the entire tire is exposed so it can disapate heat. While in NASCAR, the tire is shielded from open air by the fenders. Adding to this, is the heat of the brakes. In F1 the pads and discs are in open air, with maybe ducting to cool them. Whereas, again, the pads and discs are encased in the fender well.

F1 brakes need to be at over 1000° to work right. Teams WANT heat in them. They are carbon/carbon and literally wouldn't well work at the temps nascar cars see, even at the most demanding brake tracks. Lately teams have been making shields to keep the heat in the brakes. Temperatures are much more of a concern for F1 cars than Nascar.

You mean that F1 crew chiefs worry more than NASCAR crew chiefs?

A 10-15° temp change from practice to race really pisses the teams off. Tires can grain and chunk real bad in those situations.

stowaway - 12 March 2008 12:32 PM

F1 brakes need to be at over 1000° to work right. Teams WANT heat in them. They are carbon/carbon and literally wouldn't well work at the temps nascar cars see, even at the most demanding brake tracks. Lately teams have been making shields to keep the heat in the brakes. Temperatures are much more of a concern for F1 cars than Nascar.

Yes, carbon brakes do need to be hot in order to work; however:

The shields are NOT to keep heat in the brakes, they are to direct the cooling air exhaust where it can best benefit the overall aerodynamics of the car. Carbon brakes, having a much higher coefficient of friction than steel rotors and their corresponding pads, heat up much faster and also dissipate that heat faster as well. They are known for becoming red hot on corner entry and cooling right back off. Keeping them hot is not an issue, as far as I know.

This from Toyota's Dieter Gass:

"“The carbon brakes only work in the right temperature window - if you are below 300 degrees there is almost no braking at all so it is important to heat up the brakes. On the other hand, it is important not to have the temperature too high. This is why we have big cooling ducts on all four brakes. In this way the temperature is controlled and we have the optimum brake temperature for the optimum braking performance.” "
http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2007/8/6625.html

Granted, most brake cooling in F1 is to keep the caliper and therefore the fluid cool, but some cooling of the rotor surface is done as well for carbon, at least according to AP:

"Cooling Requirements
The uprights should be designed to provide a cooling air pathway of at least 140cm² area. AP Racing carbon/carbon requires good face cooling. It is worth monitoring airflow / temperature on both inside and outside disc faces during testing."
http://www.apracing.com/info/info.asp?section=Gt+&+Lmp+Brake+Carbon+User+Guide_51

I do not remember the last time (I heard of)an F1 car had brake overheating problems (or underheating problems); this happens regularly in Nascar especially at Martinsville, so I cannot agree with your assertion that "Temperatures are much more of a concern for F1 cars than Nascar."

The teams were having trouble with them cooling too much on the long straights before corners. The shields, from what I've read, help keep heat in under those conditions. That's why we were seeing them more on the high speed circuits last year than the low speed ones.

I guess I should have said TIRE temperatures are more of a concern in F1 than in Nascar.

I know Nascar avoids high tech gizmos on their racers but it might be prudent for real time telemetry about tire pressure on the right front.

Indycars, F1, and sports cars have this.

My plain "off the rack" Chevy has it for heaven's sake.

Maybe a moment's warning could save some damage / injury / yellow flag laps.



Mike C.

mike_c_56 - 19 March 2008 09:21 AM

My plain "off the rack" Chevy has it for heaven's sake.

Maybe a moment's warning could save some damage / injury / yellow flag laps.

Mike C.

While you have a point, the pressure monitor system on your car doesn't really monitor tire pressure. It monitors ride height.

I'm pretty sure one thing you're NOT going to see anytime in the near future is ANYTHING of an electronic nature on a NASCAR stock car. They like their 1965 technology, and they are going to stick to it. Keep that kind of talk up and the next thing you know someone will be trying to get them to allow ABS or some other radical thing like EFI. Stop that right now

Bill

hobbymanbill - 20 March 2008 11:43 PM

I'm pretty sure one thing you're NOT going to see anytime in the near future is ANYTHING of an electronic nature on a NASCAR stock car. They like their 1965 technology, and they are going to stick to it. Keep that kind of talk up and the next thing you know someone will be trying to get them to allow ABS or some other radical thing like EFI. Stop that right now

Bill

Yes, lets add all sorts of technology, just like F1. And, maybe, we can have the same kind of screwed up racing they have.

mustang6172 - 12 March 2008 02:17 AM

Where did you get those numbers?

I gave NASCAR the benefit of the doubt that on racing slicks and 24* banking they could double the grip of a street stock Corvette on street tires on flat ground. Simple physics gives the numbers. With a 24* banking, approx. 26.5% of the weight goes into down force, while approx. 73.5% of the weight goes to side force. F1 has more side force, NASCAR has more down force due to banking. If I am wrong, I would be surprised to see the loading wrong on the low side. Street DOT tires do not have anywhere near the grip of a race tire, and flat v 24* is a huge difference in grip. As far as the F1 numbers, the side force is easy, 5x1333lbs. The downforce is more complicated, but the downforce becomes less effective the faster you go as the airflows start to seperate from the wing elements, but I estimated. Could the numbers be way different? Possibly. Is the fact that F1 tires only experience these loads for a couple seconds a lap true? Definately.

Mike

mustang6172 - 20 March 2008 11:36 PM

mike_c_56 - 19 March 2008 09:21 AM

My plain "off the rack" Chevy has it for heaven's sake.

Maybe a moment's warning could save some damage / injury / yellow flag laps.

Mike C.

While you have a point, the pressure monitor system on your car doesn't really monitor tire pressure. It monitors ride height.

Hmmmmmmmmmm......I wonder how those individual pressure sensors inside each wheel measure ride height......any ideas?