[quote:df1893916e="rogeeeferrari"][quote:df1893916e="ZX10R_AC"][quote:df1893916e="vadardenza12"]McLaren got its advantage using Ferrari's design and race tactics info, regardless of what the FIA was able to prove. Everyone knows it. McLaren will again become the also ran it was and will have trouble getting podiums from Renault and BMW next year.[/quote:df1893916e]

Hey, Rookie, please read the whole spygate affair and the FACTS before you make yourself look foolish again.[/quote:df1893916e]
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He seems to have a pretty good grasp of the "facts" if you asked me. Mclaren could suck next year, and I'd sure enjoy that. Look at the last time that they had a near miss at the championship, they sure sucked the following year.

[size=9:df1893916e][b:df1893916e]HEY, I SEE A TREND...[/b:df1893916e][/size:df1893916e] [size=7:df1893916e][b:df1893916e] I HOPE[/b:df1893916e][/size:df1893916e][/quote:df1893916e]


it cuts both ways though Rog.


if 2005 taught us anything, it's the fact that "the Show" doesn't tolerate a dynasty if it affects revenues via a loss of interest due to predictability and boredom or a lack of melodrama (what's next ? - make sure you get mentioned on Entertainment Tonight and Access Hollywood like NASCAR ?)



My point is: if McLaren understands (and I'm not sure if they do if you read what Symonds said) how they got pace on these Bridgestones from looking at your guys' data and ideas , they can certainly feed the FIA information on how to slow your guys down through regulations , just like they (the FIA) did in 2005.


Tactically, that would be a smart move by McLaren actually.


We'll see how the no TC countermeasures via the differential adjustments works out next year.


I'd like to see how BMW and Renault close the gap to McLaren & Ferrari next year without TC and the standard ECU as the new "random variables" for next yr.


PS when I read the emails between Stepney and Coughlan, it seems Stepney was constantly edumacating Coughlan on clarifications of understanding. So one wonders if Coughlan "got it" or just parrot-relayed the ideas.

[quote:f33bb6bb70="pastorel"]Why doesn't eveybody pull out of F-1 and just let the Ferraris run by themselves, since they seem to own the sport anyway.

And I don't mean that in a good way.

I can't wait to see them go down next year.

There will be no dynasty[/quote:f33bb6bb70]

Essentially everybody did try to pull out of F1. They cloaked failure to breakaway in an agreement to stay.

[quote:f33bb6bb70="GinnyPotter"]racing is life wrote:

I asked myself many times why they play the Ferrari game again again and again...These two (Barrichelo and Massa) shouldn't play it...I like Massa as a driver but if he continues playing the game in the position, I don't see any gain. Perhaps Piquet Jr. will take a different approach.

A fluke? Really? You troll more and more with your sig, that's it's ridiculous. 18 points in two grand prix. Nevertheless; this is another McWhiner fan post. Be a McLaren fan all you want, but realize you lost. Accept it... I'M BEGGIN YA ![/quote:f33bb6bb70]
Perhaps Piquet will take a different approach and sign with a team that scores no better than 10 points a year for the duration of his career, you'd see that as better than a #2 seat on a WCC team?

This seems to be the current contest of wills: will the whiners outlast those beggin them to move on? Likely it'll be the 'beggers' who move on, the whiners will live year to year without a hint of the sport beyond that.

What McLaren fans don't seem to appreciate is how hard it can be for Ferrari fans, coming from a decades long slump and though there's been a good run recently it can't last forever... on the other hand sympathize with McLaren fans: their team's run by someone that makes Machiavelli look like a lightweight schemer.

I've always seen it as a very fine line from the top of the grid to the bottom: it wouldn't surprise me to see the '08 Ferrari and/or McLaren do no better than the '07 Renault, or to see Red Bull or Honda take their place.

[quote:608df76e23]but jonny come lately's like yourself just can't grasp that F-1 is a team sport and always has been[/quote:608df76e23]

Why do these things always have to get personal? I may not know or have proof that Massa will become a number two driver but [i:608df76e23]you[/i:608df76e23] definitely do not know my history with the sport you have such passion for. Jonny come lately? I take as a personal insult.

I grew up about three miles outside the track which hosted the Grand Prix of Canada from 1967 – 1977. In 1969 at age 10 my friends and I rode our bikes up the back roads to the track, we stashed our bikes in the woods and sneaked in the back way to watch the races. It became an annual tradition. Back then I was not fully aware of all the personalities who participated but in looking up the history of the track I now see it was a pretty amazing list.

The first year I went, Jackie Ickx won in a Brabham. Then in 71 and 72, Jackie Stewart won for Tyrrell ([i:608df76e23]I do remember Jackie[/i:608df76e23]). 1973 – Peter Revson, McLaren; Emerson Fittipaldi, McLaren in 74 and James Hunt driving a McLaren won in 1976. The last year the race was run in my childhood playground Jody Scheckter won for Wolf and Gilles Villeneuve drove his last race at the track in a Ferrari. And these where just the ones I watched win, there were more but I think you catch my drift. Jonny whatever. But come lately?


[quote:608df76e23]don't want to hear any of this enduring bs , I became a Ferrari fan in 1984 .[/quote:608df76e23]

With all that, there is one sight I recall with distinct clarity and that was watching Bruce McLaren and Denny Hulme dominate in Can-am, this along with the numerous F1 wins made me a McLaren fan somewhere around 1969. Coincidentally, (and considering the argument) right around the time when I am sure people were getting sick of watching McLaren dominate Can-am.

When the Canadian race moved in 1978, it became harder to follow or watch and in the years past, my love affair with the sport has come and gone. And so it is, that within resent years ([i:608df76e23]the season of Hakkinen’s retirement and through the advent of Satellite and Speed[/i:608df76e23]) I have rekindled my passion. Sadly, I missed the Senna era but sometimes there are other things in life which take precedent. Sorry for the personal history lesson but I just couldn’t let jonny come lately go by.

So I am new to this forum and relatively new to the modern incarnation of F1 but that does not make my insight or opinion any less relevant. That said, my view on what Massa will do in the future is not "sour grapes" but pure speculation. A Judgement made by watching the actions of all those involved. What people do in their lives says more about the person then anything they may or may not say. So rest easy man and I am sure everyone ([i:608df76e23]even McWhiners[/i:608df76e23]) hopes that Massa will come out of the gate running next year. Also, I am fully aware that both Ferrari drivers were afforded the opportunity to become Champion at the beginning of this past season, I’m just not so sure about next year. But, we’ll see.

The Brazilian thing? Hell, that was all just too ironic and I had to write it down. And besides that, I have always had a soft spot for Barrichello and was sad to hear of his fateful end to the year.

As I have said regarding team orders and such, the rule and the discriminatory execution of it is the problem. It created a situation where one team was allowed team orders at the end of the year, while the other ([i:608df76e23]even if they could or wanted to[/i:608df76e23]) was not. And then there’s Q3 at Hungary. What was that penalty about, not following team orders? It all just leaves me shaking my head and start seriously considering conspiracy options.

But don't worry I'm not going there and in the end all this talk is immaterial. I’ll just look ahead to next year when perhaps a new page in history will be written. I’m not sure if this has ever happened before but next year ([i:608df76e23]if it’s ok. with Max and the FIA[/i:608df76e23]) I am looking forward to seeing the team at the back end of pit lane take both World Championships.

The best part of my childhood? Sneaking into the pits and seeing those cars from the seventies up close.

Dzu-Fast enjoy your day in the sun and thanks for showing more then just your hand.

[quote:ee4811d81c="petrus_boots"] So I am new to this forum and relatively new to the modern incarnation of F1 but that does not make my insight or opinion any less relevant. That said, my view on what Massa will do in the future is not "sour grapes" but pure speculation. A Judgement made by watching the actions of all those involved. What people do in their lives says more about the person then anything they may or may not say. So rest easy man and I am sure everyone ([i:ee4811d81c]even McWhiners[/i:ee4811d81c]) hopes that Massa will come out of the gate running next year. Also, I am fully aware that both Ferrari drivers were afforded the opportunity to become Champion at the beginning of this past season, I’m just not so sure about next year. But, we’ll see.


[/quote:ee4811d81c]
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So, at least you admit that you're just speculating, that all we can do anyway, no ?

I would ask why you seem to have a problem at all with Ferrari and either Barrichello or Massa ? As for Rubens, do you really think he could out perform Schumacher consistantly enough to win a WDC ? Forget it ! And how long do you thing Massa took before he signed his contract extension that Luca put in front of him ? Massa knows he's one lucky boy to be in the position he's in.

This year was a total team Championship, with everyone contributing. It was really a thing of beauty, regardless of the few who just don't understand this.

[b:a0c888c133]I an a Tifosi. I own a Ferrari.
Any chance I ever had of being a McLaren fan was killed by Dennis, Coughlan and the McCheater Team. Bruce would be rolling over in his grave IMVHO.

Can't imagine rooting for McLaren after this season.

BTW the world's largerst McLaren collection is in Arvada (suburb of Denver) owned by Harry Matthews. Open to the public and worth seeing. Pre Ron Dennis. He does have a couple of Ferraris too.

Thank God I am a Tifosi.

Life is too short not to own a Ferrari and be a Tifosi. :wink: [/b:a0c888c133]

[quote:ec383c8554]So, at least you admit that you're just speculating, that all we can do anyway, no ? [/quote:ec383c8554]

I never said anything to the contrary. And yes.

[quote:ec383c8554]I would ask why you seem to have a problem at all with Ferrari and either Barrichello or Massa ? As for Rubens, do you really think he could out perform Schumacher consistantly enough to win a WDC ? Forget it ![/quote:ec383c8554]

If Schumacher or any decent driver was number 2 and backing Barrichello, of course he would have won a WDC. To say any different is to say the Ferraris were not up to the task in any of the one two finishes. Are you ready to say that?
I don’t have a problem with Ferrari per say. As I’ve said, the problem is the rule of no team orders which is adhered or ignored depending on circumstance. If ([i:ec383c8554]as I have been told[/i:ec383c8554]) it is a team sport then why not just stop pretending. Also, if it’s a team sport, why do I get flack on now seeing Massa as the number two driver? Team = 1 offence + 2 defence. And who is now a world champion driving a Ferrari? Massa?

[quote:ec383c8554]I an a Tifosi. I own a Ferrari.
Any chance I ever had of being a McLaren fan was killed by Dennis, Coughlan and the McCheater Team. Bruce would be rolling over in his grave IMVHO.
Can't imagine rooting for McLaren after this season. [/quote:ec383c8554]

If you are Tifosi, could you [i:ec383c8554]ever [/i:ec383c8554]root for McLaren?
Interesting how the disgruntled Ferrari mechanic who started all this is not included in your list of the "McCheaters". As for Bruce McLaren, I can not speculate on what he may or may not be doing or thinking within his grave but if I was, I would hazard to guess that he would be disgusted with the FIA, Max Nosebleed and the general F1 show of the day. One other thing. I keep hearing high praise for Bruce McLaren immediately followed by disdain for the team bearing his name. You have a problem with Dennis, Coughlan or whomever, fine; just find another way to express it other than perverting McLaren’s name sake. McWhiners, McCheaters… please, it’s not McThis, McThat or McDonalds; it’s McLaren. Unless of course Endso Fear-arrai is to your liking ([i:ec383c8554]just a lame example to make a point, for I wouldn’t stoop[/i:ec383c8554]). Respect; if you truly feel it, show it.
I drive a 92 Honda Civic. I bought a Ferrari for my daughter but of course it’s a Barbie Ferrari. It doesn’t go very fast or corner very well but it does look good.
Flexible floor, interesting concept but of course under FIA rules it’s considered cheating. And next year, I suppose everyone will be wearing aerodynamic spats to the party. With the exception being... McLaren of course, because then [i:ec383c8554]they[/i:ec383c8554] would be cheating.
It’s a bag of worms. I didn’t start this thread with the troubles but so it digressed. Lets move on, I’m sure Bruce McLaren would appreciate it.

[quote:0e9ea95f19="petrus_boots"][quote:0e9ea95f19]So, at least you admit that you're just speculating, that all we can do anyway, no ? [/quote:0e9ea95f19]

I never said anything to the contrary. And yes.

[quote:0e9ea95f19]I would ask why you seem to have a problem at all with Ferrari and either Barrichello or Massa ? As for Rubens, do you really think he could out perform Schumacher consistantly enough to win a WDC ? Forget it ![/quote:0e9ea95f19]

If Schumacher or any decent driver was number 2 and backing Barrichello, of course he would have won a WDC. To say any different is to say the Ferraris were not up to the task in any of the one two finishes. Are you ready to say that?
I don’t have a problem with Ferrari per say. As I’ve said, the problem is the rule of no team orders which is adhered or ignored depending on circumstance. If ([i:0e9ea95f19]as I have been told[/i:0e9ea95f19]) it is a team sport then why not just stop pretending. Also, if it’s a team sport, why do I get flack on now seeing Massa as the number two driver? Team = 1 offence + 2 defence. And who is now a world champion driving a Ferrari? Massa?

[quote:0e9ea95f19]I an a Tifosi. I own a Ferrari.
Any chance I ever had of being a McLaren fan was killed by Dennis, Coughlan and the McCheater Team. Bruce would be rolling over in his grave IMVHO.
Can't imagine rooting for McLaren after this season. [/quote:0e9ea95f19]

If you are Tifosi, could you [i:0e9ea95f19]ever [/i:0e9ea95f19]root for McLaren?
Interesting how the disgruntled Ferrari mechanic who started all this is not included in your list of the "McCheaters". As for Bruce McLaren, I can not speculate on what he may or may not be doing or thinking within his grave but if I was, I would hazard to guess that he would be disgusted with the FIA, Max Nosebleed and the general F1 show of the day. One other thing. I keep hearing high praise for Bruce McLaren immediately followed by disdain for the team bearing his name. You have a problem with Dennis, Coughlan or whomever, fine; just find another way to express it other than perverting McLaren’s name sake. McWhiners, McCheaters… please, it’s not McThis, McThat or McDonalds; it’s McLaren. Unless of course Endso Fear-arrai is to your liking ([i:0e9ea95f19]just a lame example to make a point, for I wouldn’t stoop[/i:0e9ea95f19]). Respect; if you truly feel it, show it.
I drive a 92 Honda Civic. I bought a Ferrari for my daughter but of course it’s a Barbie Ferrari. It doesn’t go very fast or corner very well but it does look good.
Flexible floor, interesting concept but of course under FIA rules it’s considered cheating. And next year, I suppose everyone will be wearing aerodynamic spats to the party. With the exception being... McLaren of course, because then [i:0e9ea95f19]they[/i:0e9ea95f19] would be cheating.
It’s a bag of worms. I didn’t start this thread with the troubles but so it digressed. Lets move on, I’m sure Bruce McLaren would appreciate it.[/quote:0e9ea95f19]

Petrus, I think you are in battle of wits with an unarmed man...

try clicking on my sig pic, we'd love to have you aboard and exchange opinions with you!

[quote:b2ed780bb3="racing is life"]
I asked myself many times why they play the Ferrari game again again and again...These two (Barrichelo and Massa) shouldn't play it...I like Massa as a driver but if he continues playing the game in the position, I don't see any gain. Perhaps Piquet Jr. will take a different approach.[/quote:b2ed780bb3]

Perhaps Massa and Rubens though it was better to serve in Heaven than reign in hell......